Talk:Bobby Kay

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bobby Kay/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Monowi (talk) 05:05, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Initial Comments

This article passes the quick-fail criteria. Article looks a bit short at first glance, and seems to rely heavily on one source. My goal for this review is to be as thorough as possible with every last detail, but please note it's my personal policy not to make any (substantial) edits on the article I'm currently reviewing, so the list of changes is up to other editors to carry out.

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Required changes for GAN passage

1. The first sentence needs to be changed. As outlined in WP:LEAD, the name of the article needs to be not only mentioned in the first sentence, but bolded as well. Try re-phrasing the sentence as such. "Romeo Cormier[1] is a retired Canadian professional wrestler who primarily competed under the name Bobby Kay."
2. The second sentence of the lead section reads, "He is a member of the famous Cormier wrestling family, a group of four brothers who were all successful professional wrestlers." Under WP:NPOV, I have to insist that the word "famous" be removed from the sentence. It's just overkill and biased in favor of the wrestlers, and the point of the sentence comes off a bit more clearly without it.
3. The last sentence of the lead section currently reads, "After retiring from wrestling, Cormier began performing country music professionally." After reading the article text, I find this statement erroneous. The only cited reference as to his post-retirement works states that he is employed with a food shipping company; clearly not something a "professional" would be doing. There's not even a reference to support the fact he has his own band. You can phrase re-phrase this part of the lead section however you like, but I would leave out any mention of performing as a musician until there is a cited reference for it.
4. As I mentioned above, a citation is needed for the fact that he performs country music with his own band.
5. In the 2nd paragraph of the "Career" section, there's a sentence that reads, "In Calgary's Stampede Wrestling, he used the name Norton Jackson." Please insert a citation to verify this info.
6. The third paragraph of the "Career" section currently features only two citations. As a reader unfamiliar with pro wrestling, and even more unfamiliar with wrestling pre-1990, I have to insist that more citations be used in this paragraph, and perhaps even a citation for each sentence. After all, I'm sure this info came from somewhere, so we might as well go ahead and let the readers know where the info was obtained from.
7. In the 4th paragraph under the "Career" section, please include a reference for the sentence where it mentions he used the ring name "Bobby Burke."
8. Since this is an article of a living person, we need a citation for the first sentence of the "Retirement" section that mentions his family.

Suggestions for Future Improvement

1. The over-reliance on the SLAM! Wrestling web article from June 20, 2009 is of great concern to the article's future improvement. This article will require a multitude of additional reliable sources to be considered for a Featured Article nomination. It's clear the wiki article is built around that reference, as that single source is cited more times than the rest of the references combined.
2. Be prepared to answer questions about the reliability of the current cited references should the article get to a Featured Article Nomination. If you have already had several articles reach the Featured Article Candidate process, you'll probably have a better idea than me as to what sources are considered reliable for both past and present coverage of pro wrestling.
3. Since he competed under several different names, the article needs to do a better job establishing why and how his notablility is under the name "Bobby Kay." The text needs to clearly mention that in the wrestling world he known primarily by that name, and hopefully this can be established through the refereces that are required for GAN passage.
4. As an article reader, I found it disconcerting having to wade through not only Cormier's/Kay's various ring names, but the names of his brothers as well (i.e. too many names to read & remember in a short amount of text). It's definitely important info to include in the article, but it just wasn't very much fun to read through. I'm not sure anything can really be done about it. Maybe a different approach like listing all of Cormier's/Kay's stage names, but then I'm sure the chronology of the article would suffer.
5. A quote from either Bobby Kay himself or one of this wrestling contemporaries would be a great way to add depth and context to the article while helping retain the reader's interest. Considering integrating a Template:Quote box into the career section to accomplish this.
6. I've noticed some other wrestling articles include descriptions of the wrestler's "signature moves." This would be another way to have more depth to the article, and again, make it a bit more fluid in terms of the reader's experience reading the article.
7. It seems like there are big gaps in the timeline of the article. for a career that lasted from 1967 to 1990, it seems like the article flies through his career at a super-fast clip.

Additional review comments

Overall, I was surprised there wasn't more attention paid to detail prior to this article being nominated for GAN. To user GaryColemanFan, with your outstanding previous experience working on articles about wrestlers (as your user page lists articles like Rip Hawk and Juggernaut (wrestler) that became Good Articles), this one was disappointing in terms of quality. After looking at the articles of the other wrestling brothers also currently up at GAN, it kind of felt like the three articles were packaged together and nominated sooner than maybe they should've been. As of December 15, 2009 the Bobby Kay article had been edited a total of four times, with the initial edit by yourself comprising nearly every single aspect of the version I am currently reviewing. Again, I was surprised to see there wasn't more time taken to proofread and fix minor details before nomination, like you did on Leo Burke's GAN nominated article by making sure his ring name was bolded in the lead section. Another disappointment came when I saw the lead section called him a "professional musician", yet there was no reference in the article to back that up, and in fact the article text (including the cited reference) clearly establishes that he works at the shipping and receiving job. With your experience, it was just really disappointing to see none of this stuff was taken care of before GAN.

Review result

ON HOLD

After reviewing this article, I have concluded that it does not currently meet the Good article requirements. However, I am allowing for a seven day hold period to present the possibility for article improvement. To be completely honest, even if most or all of the requirements are met, it would still take a lot of quality work for me to be comfortable certifying this as a Good Article. That said, I will review any changes made to the article, and make my decision from there. At the very least consider this review a resource as to what improvements to make so that the article might be substantially improved going forward. Thank you for your contribution to Wikipedia thus far, and good luck with the article in the future! Monowi (talk) 05:43, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Response:

1. I changed the first sentence to comply with the MOS. I admit that I'm not great with bolding issues, so it was a problem in this article because I created the article myself. On many other articles that I've helped bring to GA status, I was expanding articles in which other people more familiar with bolding issues have already taken care of that.
2. I totally agree that "famous" had no place in the article, so I removed it.
3. The statement about working as a professional musician is correct, although it is not, admittedly, his most recent occupation. I fixed that.
4. A citation was given (reference 1), although to avoid overkill, the reference supported everything that preceded it rather than giving it at the end of each sentence. I have added references to the end of each sentence in the "Retirement" section, though.
5. Again, the ring name Norton Jackson was supported by a reference already, although it was not a reference given at the end of each sentence (once again, one that supported everything in the paragraph up to the reference). I have Tadded another reference, though.
6. The third paragraph of the "Career" section is fully referenced. All of the information pertaining to the ESA International Tag Team Championship is supported by the reference at the end of the paragraph. In this case, I think it would definitely be overkill to add a reference to every sentence, as they would all be to the same source.
7. A source has been added for the ring name Bobby Burke.
8. As stated above, references have been added to the "Retirement" section.

To address the other points, this article was edited more than four times. It was created in a sandbox and built over an extended period of time before being moved to the mainspace. I believe that covers all of the points that you said were required for GA status. I have exhausted all of the sources currently available to me. Unfortunately, not a lot has been written about Bobby Kay (or his brother Rudy Kay), as most sources focus on their much-more-famous brothers The Beast and Leo Burke. I would really appreciate it if you could give some specifics on what else (if anything) is required for this GAN to pass. Thanks for the review. GaryColemanFan (talk) 21:53, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

Note: Monowi seems to have disappeared, so if after a few more days there's no follow up, let me know and I'll finish the review. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 00:11, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Final GA1 Review result - article does not meet GA criteria at this time

After considering the changes and reviewing the article again, I feel this article does not currently meet the Wikipedia:Good article criteria. While the article did undergo some improvements, there are a few key aspects that lead me to fail the article. First, I again asked myself; is the article factually accurate and verifiable? That lead me to another question, which was; if the primary source (the Slam! wrestling feature) of this article didn't exist, could the body of the article be considered verifiable via other cited and/or available sources? The answer is no. I feel uncomfortable promoting an article to GA status based on one continually cited sources alone (consider that some modern day newspaper reporters use two sources of info before publishing investigative-news type stories). As a briefly mentioned in my review, I completely understand that currently the amount of available references for Bobby Kay/Cromier is limited because the bulk of his career occurred before wrestling had the wealth of media coverage it does now. Unfortunately, that doesn't not change the fact the article still needs to have proper sources to reach statuses like GA and FA. Perhaps there are printed sources that could be cited, or newspaper articles written during Bobby Kay's time that can be found through archival means.

You asked for specifics, and in short, I'm saying the bulk of this article's GA nomination is predicated on citing a single source. That leads me to conclude the article doesn't meet the verifiability requirements. If one or more reliable sources could back up the details of Bobby Kay's career that are outlined in the Slam! wrestling article, then it would be clear that this wiki article stood a good chance of GA promotion. This article does have a lot of things going for it, such as a good layout, more than adequate prose, and other positive aspects. With a little more help on the references side of things, it's easy to imagine this wiki article being promoted to GA status. Again, my best wishes to you in your outstanding work to improve wrestling articles here on Wikipedia. Cheers, Monowi (talk) 08:59, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Bobby Kay/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 03:08, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Here are a few things I found upon reading this for GA review 2:

• It says he's a retired pro wrestler in the lead, but there's no retirement date in the infobox.
• Based on ref #1, I think you could get away with adding a birthdate of c.1950 (he would've either been born in 1949 or 1950 based on that). That's up to you though.
• "He and his brother Leonce bought out Jean-Louis' stake in the Eastern Sports Association but ran into problems with their partner Al Zinck and television deals," the third brother's name is wrong there I think.
• "He also made another attempt at promoting wrestling." We need to be more specific here. When, how, etc.?

I'll put the article on hold for a few days so the issues can be addressed. Hopefully this time we can get a GA out of it. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 03:08, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the review. I made a few changes, but I wanted to clarify what (and why) I've done here. (1) I haven't seen a date given. He said in a 2009 interview that he had been retired for 20 or 21 years, so I could do the math and add an approximate date. That would give 1989 at the latest, though, and he held a championship in 1990, so I'm not sure that his recollection is accurate. (2) I added the approximate date to the infobox. (3) It was Romeo (Bobby) and Leonce (Leo) who bought our Jean-Louis (Rudy), so the statement is accurate (although I was missing the "s" after the apostrophe in "Jean-Louis'", so I fixed that). (4) I added as much as I could find about this.

Please let me know what you think about these changes and if there's anything more you would like to see. Thanks again. GaryColemanFan (talk) 06:34, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Re:number 3, both Jean-Louis and Jean-Louise are used in the article; are both acceptable? Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 22:10, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Not without an operation in between. I have fixed the spelling to use the masculine form (which matches the sources) by removing the "e". Thanks for catching that. I checked the rest of the Cormier articles, and I just made that mistake on this one. GaryColemanFan (talk) 23:02, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Alright. Now that that's fixed, everything looks in order, so I'll pass this article as a GA. Wizardman _{Operation Big Bear} 05:43, 8 February 2010 (UTC)