Talk:Bobbie R. Allen

Bobbie R. Allen

@Chris troutman, Mr. Allen has important contributions to aviation safety. This article is fairly consistent with Mr. Najeeb Halaby and Mr. Alan S. Boyd, both of whom worked closely with Mr. Allen and they both have Wikipedia articles. Wdallen49 (talk) 01:03, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

@Wdallen49: Please don't make an WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS argument. Boyd was the first US Secretary of Transportation. Both Boyd and Halaby had obits in the NYT. Allen has neither of those claims. Further, your draft relies upon documents you uploaded to Google drive, which isn't allowed. Wikipedia (like all encyclopedias) is a tertiary source and as such, summarizes what secondary sources say. You, like many editors, see this website as a way to self-publish on a hobby topic believing that there is no barrier to entry. This is why I advised you to submit this to a periodical that has a fact-checking team, an editorial board, and an editor-in-chief. Wikipedia has none of those things and it's inappropriate for you to try to use the evidence you've provided to publish your narrative here as Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought. We have no animus against the subject, but we're following notability guidelines. I will not be helping you so don't continue to contact me. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) Chris Troutman (talk) 02:32, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

@Chris troutman :::Sources noted below are in-line cited in the article Bobbie R. Allen and I believe they qualify as secondary or tertiary sources:

1. Marqui's, A.N. (1968). Who's Who in America. Chicago, Illinois: A.N. Marquis Company. p. 64.

5. Allen, Bobbie R. (1967). "Congressional testimony of Bobbie R. Allen on Apollo 1 tragedy" (PDF). wikipedia.org. p. 14. Retrieved 5 January 2024.

6. AP Photo. "Allen & Halaby examine wreckage at crash site". Google.com. Associated Press. Retrieved 8 January 2024.

7. Associated Press. "Allen Says Equipment On Jetliner Was In Order". newspapers.com. Retrieved 12 January 2024.

8. Young, Warren R. (18 December 1964). "1964 Life Magazine Article: Mysterious Killer in the Skies". books.google.com. Retrieved 12 January 2024.

9. Pollock, Steve (2014). Deadly Turbulence. McFarland & Company. p. 45. ISBN 978-0-7864-7433-2. Retrieved 12 January 2024.

10. (Director) Yoshitane, Horii; (Host) McCutcheon, Dick; (Interviewee) Allen, Bobbie R. Allen. (What Happened Up There, Public TV Broadcast) paleycenter.org. The Paley Center for Media. Retrieved 12 January 2024.

21. Orlady, Harry W. (1999). Human Factors in Multi Crew Flight Operations. Ashgate. p. 397. ISBN 978-1-351-56344-4. Retrieved 3 January 2024

22. Reynard, W.D.; Billings, C.E. (1986). The Development of the NASA Aviation Safety Reporting System (Publication 1114 ed.). Ames Research Center, Moffet Field, CA: NASA Reference Publication. Retrieved 6 January 2024.

23. Allen, Bobbie R. (1968). "B.R. Allen, National Transportation Safety Board Bureau of Aviation Safety". Journal of Air Law and Commerce. 34 (3): 11. Retrieved 5 January 2024.

26. NASA (2024). "ASRS Program Briefing" (PDF). Asrs.arc.nasa.gov: 55. Retrieved 5 January 2024.

28. Stahl, Scott. "NASA's ASRS". aerocrewnews.com. Aero Crew News. Retrieved 12 January 2024. Wdallen49 (talk) 22:47, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

You've ignored everything I wrote, which is why I tend to be dismissive of new editors. Please take your hard work to a newspaper or magazine. Chris Troutman (talk) 23:24, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 11 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Both respondents said the current name is what the sources refer to him as, and no further evidence provided to warrant moving. (I copied a comment from RMTR, but expressed no opinion on the move in the discuss and hence don't believe I was involved.) (closed by non-admin page mover) Kj cheetham (talk) 15:40, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

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Bobbie R. Allen → Bobbie Allen – There is only one Bobbie Allen with an article. Jax 0677 (talk) 12:05, 10 February 2024 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Jax 0677 (talk) 12:34, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Most sources refer to him as Bobbie R. Allen. 162 etc. (talk) 17:28, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

The above comment was copied from WP:RMTR. -Kj cheetham (talk) 15:21, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

@Kj cheetham@Jax 0677@162 etc., Bobbie R. Allen, Director of Bureau of Aviation Safety, NTSB is known as Bobbie R. Allen in numerous historical documents. Article on NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System and as noted above, numerous citations refer to the prior Director as Bobbie R. Allen. Wdallen49 (talk) 12:17, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Bobbie R. Allen is well known in Aviation Safety History. He laid the groundwork for NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System and is referred to in numerous historical documents. Google "Bobbie R. Allen" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wdallen49 (talk • contribs) 16:02, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

@Kj cheetham, can you please close this move request? I believe feedback is complete and there are good reasons to keep the name Bobbie R. Allen. Wdallen49 (talk) 15:31, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sourcing concerns

Continuing from The Teahouse, the reliance on primary source materials in this article is pretty concerning. Some of the sources previously cited cannot be used at all in a Wikipedia article; I've left a few questionable ones in. I don't doubt the notability of the subject, who played a crucial role in the formation of aviation safety standards used across the industry today.

Many of these primary sources were uploaded to Commons with improper attribution, so I opened a thread at :c:Commons:Village pump/Copyright § Licensing concerns for category.

Wdallen49, how did you obtain access to these sources? Anything available from e.g. NTSB archives can still be cited (although as primary sources, they'll require additional support). But if these are personal files kept in the family, you might need to contact the applicable agencies of employment to see if they've released these records or archived them somewhere.

If this article ends up severely trimmed, I'd encourage you again to seek outside publication for your work. Folly Mox (talk) 13:35, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

@Folly Mox, the most important source in the article is the nomination of Mr. Allen by Charles S. Murphy. This nomination along with other information is archived at the U.S. Government Civil Service Records for Bobbie R. Allen. I find it most concerning that the methods used among many at Wikipedia is to destroy others work with minimal effort to assist in improvement. Wdallen49 (talk) 20:34, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Wdallen49, I must be brief here so I can get to work on time. No one here enjoys removing the work of others, but there exist misconceptions about Wikipedia's nature: it's not a venue for publishing one's own research, no matter how thorough and well executed. Wikipedia is explicitly constituted as a tertiary source.

I can tell you've put a lot of hard work into this article about an important encyclopaedia topic we previously lacked coverage of, a family member. That's why I've been trying my best to help you get this article to a place of compliance with Wikipedia content policy.

This is probably unduly direct, but if all the materials you uploaded and all the article prose you wrote had been published to another website first – even a personal website – Wikipedia could host this article in a substantially identical state, using the other website as its main source, and few editors if any would question it.

The other main consideration at present is Wikimedia Commons, where most of your materials have been uploaded. It's very understandable to make the mistake of attributing uploads there as one's "own work", but that is meant to be reserved for things like photographs personally taken and artwork personally created. Most of the material seems to be in the public domain, so I'm hoping the attribution can be changed on their end without needing to remove and reupload the files.

The recommendation letter, available in public archives, is usable and can stay. I've already hidden the citations to sources that I know to be unusable, although a few seem borderline unless an available archive repository can be identified where they could be verified by a member of the public. The good news is that, for the sources still cited in the article, even if they are unable to remain at Commons due to licensing concerns, the citations can stay, since sources don't have to be available online.

I'm not sure how much help I'll be in finding any secondary sources to add to the article this week, but I'll try to prioritise it during my available free time. Whenever you get the chance, I'd encourage you to read WP:PRIMARY (a content policy) and WP:PUBLISHED (an information page).

I don't want to see your work destroyed and I do want Wikipedia to have this article. Off to work, Folly Mox (talk) 11:14, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

@Folly Mox, I really appreciate your efforts at salvaging most of the work on the article. I was able to change most of the source information on Wikimedia Commons and changed to "PD-USGov" obviously the correct solution. If you spot any other issues, let me know. Regards... Wdallen49 (talk) 14:28, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for fixing the attribution for those files. I think that should help them stick around on Commons; I'm not very familiar with the culture there. I undid a revert that restored the article to the state it was in prior to my citation fixes. I'm not sure whether this was intentional, but I reincorporated the later edits to the § Personal life section, and added the letter of appointment to Captain as an image rather than a reference.

For clarity, personal records unavailable for verification through any publically accessible archive are not suitable for references, whether or not the licensing is attributed correctly. We can use it as an image, but not as a reference. I hope that makes sense.

In case you feel like the maintenance template at the top of the page is inaccurate, I'll try to tag the primary sources with an inline maintenance tag instead, which should clarify which statements may need additional support from secondary sources.

One other concern I currently have is with the summary tables. I haven't really seen anything like this in other Wikipedia articles (although I haven't done much work in the space of modern military veterans), and I feel like the tables with headers Aviation Qualifications/Certifications and Military and Civilian Education may violate the content policy WP:NOTCV. (The table headers should also probably be sentence case rather than Title Case, but this is a trivial issue.) Have to go to work again now though, Folly Mox (talk) 11:02, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

I can't tell you how much your help will mean to Mr. Allen's family and of course myself. Your input lends further credibility to the article and being able to place the photo of Mr. & Mrs. Allen together is very - very meaningful to us. Best Regards! Wdallen49 (talk) 11:59, 9 July 2024 (UTC)