Talk:Bob Feller/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Sarastro1 (talk · contribs) 21:55, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I'll have to do this review in two or three parts, but generally looking good. My comments may be a little nit-picky, but this looks like one which may be aimed at FAC, so I have been a little more fussy than normal. Just a few problems with phrasing and prose which gets a little purple in places. Read so far to the end of "Return to Cleveland"; several source spot-checks done to this point which show no problems. Also looking at the images, they all seem fine except the wall sculpture. I'm no expert on copyright, but I would imagine that a piece of artwork such as this would be covered by copyright laws. Also the licensing and description on the image does not look correct. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:55, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Lead

• "threw three no-hitters and 12 one-hitters": Links for these?

Done

• "He won a World Series title in 1948 ": I think other members of the team may have had something to do with it as well.

Done; He did win a WS and I don't believe the writing gives the impression he won the Indians a WS, but I've changed it a bit nonetheless

• "helped the Indians win an American League-record 111 games and the pennant in 1954": Assuming both of these took place in 1954, maybe move "in 1954" to the start of this phrase to make it clearer.

Done

• "In 1946, Feller recorded 348 strikeouts on the season, a total not bettered for 27 years.": Link strikeout? And does "not bettered for 27 years" mean that it was the best since 1919 or the best for the next 27 years?

Strikeouts linked in immediate preceding sentences. Added year to which 3489 was good til.

• "participated in barnstorming exhibition games": Barnstorming? Unless this has some meaning that I'm missing, this looks like POV.

I made it linkable. If you still think it needs adjustment, let me know, however.

• The lead seems a little light.

Done

 Done Zepppep (talk) 01:24, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Early life

• "Originally the Feller's were Roman Catholics but turned to attending Methodist services when Feller's father was scorned by the parish priest for letting Feller play on the Sabbath.": A little too grand here, maybe. It looks (but isn't) like a quote. Maybe just "Originally the Feller's were Roman Catholics but became Methodists after Feller's father was reprimanded by their parish priest for letting him play on Sundays."

Done

• Why does ref 8 have the page number as part of the reference number but the others are just part of the footnote? Another example later on, and I think we need some consistency here.

Good question. I think it's because I didn't use the Sickels book (aka, another editor used that type of referencing style rather than what I've done, which is to mention the reference once and have letters next to it for multiple times it's been referenced). I can adjust so long as I can gain access to the Sickels biography online. Zepppep (talk) 23:39, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Done

• Why "years of age" rather than "old" or just the number?

Done

• "while he continued to play semi-pro baseball": For which team was he playing semi-pro?

Corrected and added team

• "for the school's baseball team while he continued to play semi-pro baseball": baseball … baseball.

Done

• "Feller was considered to have a major league quality fastball, and major league scouts traveled to Dayton, Ohio to watch him in the annual national baseball tournament": Major league … major league. Also, a bit clunky. Maybe "Critics judged Feller's fastball to be of major league quality, and scouts from [can't avoid repeating major league! Any ideas?] traveled to…"

Done. "Big league" could also be used, but I've just gone ahead and removed "major league scout" and simply put "scout." If he's already playing semi-pro ball, and within the same sentence I've written "he was judged to have a major league quality fastball," I would venture to say the reader can see what types of scouts were pursuing him. Zepppep (talk) 23:39, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

• "After the game, multiple scouts from major league teams offered signing bonuses, but at that point he had already been signed to a professional contract.": Again using "major league", and repeating "scouts" from the previous sentence. Also, with whom had he signed the professional contract?

Done

• We still have "scouts...scouts" but not a huge deal for GA. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:55, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

 Done Zepppep (talk) 23:33, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Professional career

• "with the plan being adding him to the major league roster": Maybe just "planning to add him to the major league roster".

Done

• "After a three-month investigation, Commissioner Kenesaw Mountain Landis made it clear that he did not agree with the argument presented by Slapnicka or Cleveland president Alva Bradley, but awarded Feller to the Indians and required the club to pay a $7,500 fine.": OK, completely lost here, and with the remainder of this paragraph. What were they investigating? I thought nothing had happened, but was just planned. I thought Slapnicka was manager of the Indians, so why was he fighting them? Who is fighting? (It makes it harder to follow for non-baseballers when the name switches between Cleveland and the Indians)

Cleaned up. Let me know if you feel it's still confusing.

• "made it clear that he did not agree with the argument presented by Slapnicka or Indians president Alva Bradley, but awarded Feller to the Indians and required the club to pay a $7,500 fine." A little better, but still not quite clear what was the argument being presented, and why was there an investigation? Sarastro1 (talk) 09:55, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I have added details which I believe should answer any remaining issues. I have also added a Slapnicka quote. Let me know if you think it still needs tweaking. Zepppep (talk) 20:27, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

• "Feller made his first-career start": Should this be "first career-start"?

Done (first career start)

• "Feller struck out the side in the first inning": Struck out the side?

Done; It means he struckout all three batters faced, but I changed wording

• "Feller had early troubles in his first start. Feller struck out the side in the first inning, then went on to record 15 strikeouts against the St. Louis Browns' lineup and earned first-career win. His strikeout total was the highest for a (starting) pitching debut": What were the early troubles? Seems odd when it then seems to suggest that he did well. Was his debut against the Browns? Not entirely clear. What is a first-career win?

Done; he didn't have early troubles but it instead says "in case"; let me know if you think it's still unclear

• It's fine, and sorry for missing "in case"! Sarastro1 (talk) 09:55, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

• "tying a record previously set by Dizzy Dean": Record for what?

Done

• "appeared in 14 games, and 47 walks and 76 strikeouts in 62 innings": As written, this looks like he appeared in 47 walks and 76 strikeouts.

Done

• "When Feller returned to Van Meter for his senior year of high school, the governor of Iowa greeted him.": Seems a little trivial, unless we make it clear why the governor came to see him.

Addressed

• "Feller took to the mound for the first game": A little jargon-y?

Fixed

• "Entering the day": Slightly odd phrasing?

Fixed

• "Feller entered the ninth inning, one strikeout shy of tying the MLB record of 17 in a nine-inning game. He tied the record when he struckout Detroit's Pete Fox. Chet Laabs had already been struckout by Feller four times in the game but would do it again, this time looking when Feller pitched a fastball past him, and Feller set a modern major league record of 18 strikeouts": I think this is too detailed; why say that he was about to break the record, then he broke it? Also, no need for the sideline about Laabs.

Agree, fixed

• "Said Greenberg": A little grand. Why not just "Greenberg said"?

Done

• "At the age of 20, Feller obtained a pilot's license in 1939.": Is this relevant?

Later mention is better; done

• Ref 39 is a dead link.

I just tried and it was working OK

• "he had been given a military's exemption due to his father's failing health": Is military's a typo?

Fixed

• "Five days later he married Virginia Winther in January 1943, whom he had first met while spending time in Florida for spring training and she a student at Rollins College.": Maybe "Five days later, in January 1943, he married Virginia Winther whom he had first met while spending time in Florida for spring training and she a student at Rollins College."

Done

• "After the war had ended": Maybe just "When the war ended…"

Done

• "Feller would record his second career no-hitter on April 30, 1946, against the New York Yankees.": Why not just "Feller recorded…"

Done

• "At one point during the season as Feller thought he may be nearing Rube Waddell's AL record for strikeouts, he confirmed Waddell's mark with the AL office that the mark was 344 strikeouts, not 349.": I think there is something not quite right in this sentence.

Fixed

• "By the late 1940s, Feller, who had obtained his pilot's license in 1939 at the age of 20": Detail about the license already mentioned; maybe remove the earlier mention and keep this one.

First mention removed Zepppep (talk) 22:34, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

More to come. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:55, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

 Done Zepppep (talk) 01:24, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

World series champion

• "The 1948 Indians would have one of their finest seasons but for Feller...": Would have → had

Done

• "...it was up and down": Not encyclopaedic.

Fixed

• "Babe Ruth used Feller's bat for body support when Ruth appeared for the last time in public at Yankee Stadium in June.": Why is this relevant to Feller? And if this is to be included, "for body support" is not really clear enough. At first I thought it meant that he used it like a shield/armour, and had to check the source to see what it meant.

Changed to "weight support." I'm pretty much leaning yes towards inclusion, as Ruth was such a huge figure, that if someone was actually present at the time he gave his statement, I believe it adds a little perspective to the whole era. But I could be swayed. (since the bat was later re-purchased, I thought it all fits together nicely.)

• "Feller would go 10–3 the rest of the season": would go → went

Fixed

• "The Indians faced the Boston Red Sox in a one-game playoff to determine which team would represent the AL in the World Series. The Indians won the playoff and the pennant for the first time since the 1920 season.": Not a huge issue, but maybe combine these two sentences into one, rather than set up the match and then report on it. "The Indians won a one-game playoff againt the Boston Red Sox to determine the team to represent the AL in the World Series; it was the first time the team won the pennant since the 1920 season".
• "Feller would get the start in Game One of the 1948 World Series" → "Feller started Game One of the 1948 World Series".

Fixed

• "In the eighth inning, Feller and Boudreau appeared to have picked off the Braves' Phil Masi but umpire Bill Stewart ruled he was safe.": Picked off?

Added "stolen base attempt" to clarify, but when a pitcher throws to try and get a baserunner run, it's really the only thing it's known as. Yes, it's technically an "out" but outs occur multiple ways. Let me know if you think it still needs revamping.

• "Masi scored the game's lone run on a Braves single and despite surrendering just two hits in the game, but Feller, who pitched just 85 pitches, and the Indians lost, 1–0.": I think there is a little too much going on in this sentence.

Simplified

• "Photographs shown after the game showed Boudreau had tagged Masi out by two feet. Said Feller, "Stewart was the only guy in the park who thought he was safe."[19] Veeck, after looking at pictures from the game said, "They are very interesting pictures, but the game is over."": Again, is this relevant to Feller? If so, watch out for "shown...showed".

I believe it's relevant because it adds, IMO, not just Feller and Boudreau's opinion, but others as well. For Feller, not winning a WS game was one of his biggest career regrets and he often said that (mis)call cost him the game and cost him what would've been his only WS win. Fixed verbiage but let me know if you still think it needs tweaking.

• "His outing would prove much different from Game One when the Braves put up three runs in the top of the first inning.": Is this needed?

Removed

• "The Indians would come back to tie the game and take the lead 5–4 after the fourth inning, but the Braves tied it in the fifth before they took the lead for good in the seventh and Feller was pulled before the inning was over.": Again, too much going on here, and we really don't need the "would" construction.

Simplified, fixed

• "Lemon earned the win in Game Six and the Indians won their second World Series championship.": Win...won.\

Fixed

• "After 13 years and 10 years in the majors, Feller was a World Series champion.": A little tabloidy. We don't need this.

Removed

 Done Zepppep (talk) 01:24, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Latter years

• I think the title really should be "Later years".

Changed

• "Hank Greenberg said, "...He himself made the suggestion": Why begin the quote with ellipsis?

I believe it's because it's not the beginning of a sentence, but I've removed them.

• "Feller would record" →"Feller recorded"

Fixed

• "Al Garcia (AL pitcher)|Mike Garcia]]": I think something has gone wrong here.

Fixed; Good eye

• I think the formatting needs sorting on the Lopez quote; maybe use a template?
• "After the season had ended, speculation began to build whether Feller": "began to build"→ "built"

Fixed

• "Said Greenberg,": Again, not sure about styling it like this.

Fixed

• "have speculated that Feller would have won perhaps 350 games with well over 3,000 strikeouts": Slight mix of certainty and uncertainty here. Maybe "have speculated that Feller may have won 350 games with over 3,000 strikeouts"

Fixed; excellent catch

• "There is footage of Feller being clocked by Army ordnance equipment (used to measure artillery shell velocity) and hitting 98.6 mph (159 kph).": Some more unencyclopeadic language here; this needs tightening up.

Tightened up

• I think there is some overdetailing on the testing of his pitching speed.

Removed and simplified, whilst still holding true to various calculations at different points in his career. "Who's the fastest pitcher" is an age-old baseball question. He was known for a few pitches, incl. his fastball, so I believe details like this are necessary. Also, because so many experiments were put up I believe it also informs the reader just how interested folks were

• I also don't think we need the stuff about Jackie Robinson, as this is not directly relevant to Feller.

This is probably the only thing I respectfully disagree about with your review. Robinson and Feller have a storied history and Feller was given quite a hard time in the 90's for a period of time after a radio interview which left some wondering if he was racist or not. Robinson and he battled in exhibition games and later when Feller was pres of the players' league. The two spouted on nat'l TV interviews/news and appeared on Capitol Hill, disagreeing with each other. Finally, they were also inducted in the same year. I believe keeping these comments in regarding Robinson, Feller and race, etc. is necessary to provide a rounded view of the subject. Let me know if you have issue with this.

• "He still holds the 20th century record for most walks in a season (208 in 1938). The Indians retired his jersey number, 19, in 1957.": Ref for this?

Not sure which one you're referring to, so added to both. Also, removed "still" since the 20th C is officially over!

Barnstorming

• I have no idea what this is, and would suggest a link or explanation, and a better title for the section.

Changed heading; made it linkable

• "Feller wrote to Chandler to extend the 10-day limit on games to 20, which the Commissioner agreed to": What 10-day limit?

Sarastro1 (talk) 17:37, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Explained

Later life

• "some of which she battled addiction with the rest of her years with Feller.": Maybe better as "with some of which she battled addiction for the rest of her years with Feller."

Fixed

• "The couple was divorced": Should this be "were divorced"?

Right again, you are

• "In retirement, he lived with his wife, Anne Feller, in Gates Mills, a suburb of Cleveland.": The last sentence was about his wife, so it should be "Feller" rather than "he".

Fixed

• Second paragraph contains a lot of prose line: "In..., In..., In..."

Fixed

Legacy

• Repetition of "first" in this section.

Yikes, fixed that

• Given that most of these events occurred when he was alive, maybe move these to before the account of his death?

Agree, moved

• "According to Sickels, he was the first player to incorporate himself.": I have no idea what this means.

Provided name of company

Honors and awards

• Personally, I think this section is better incorporated into the text, where it is not already included, rather than as a list at the end.

And what do you know, makes for a great lead too!

General

• Spot-checks of sources reveal no issues.
• See above for image review: possibly problem with the sculpture image.

Removed it to be on the safe side (the article has plenty of other images)

• Checklinks tool at the top of this page reveals a dead link, and a couple of redirects which may need looking at.

The dead link you identified was working for me. I might need a bit more specifics in regards to redirects.

• No dablinks.
• Sourcing seems fine, just watch out for consistency regarding where the page numbers go, as mentioned above.

Resolved

I'll place this on hold for the moment, but I can't see any major problems. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:18, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks so much. I am doing reviews for Will Middlebrooks and Jim Thome as well, and started yest addressing some of issues you pointed out yest., but will focus on this very soon. Zepppep (talk) 21:03, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

I have tended to all of the above. Let me know if there's still anything you think still needs rectified. It's been a pleasure!

Final comments: Just about everything looks good now. Just a few remaining issues, but I have absolutely no problem with anything that you want to keep that you have mentioned above.

• Still not convinced about the lead. I think it needs to go through his career a little more, and there are some sections in the article not represented in the lead, such as his military career. Perhaps just a little more needed here.

I have added details regarding his military career. I have mentioned his first no-hitter came in '40, the final one in '51. I have also added a quote to how important he was considered to be to both baseball and the Cleveland org. Whilst I don't believe other articles should be used as an example for what is/is not preferred/allowed, I would have to say this lead is stronger than say, Sandy Koufax article.

• The references with page numbers: This would not stop me passing the article as it is not a GA issue, but in terms of taking this further, we need consistency of referencing. Some references use the little page number thing, others include the page number in the end notes. I think all references should use one format or the other, and it would certainly come up at FAC. (FWIW, I really don't like the little number thing and would remove these!)

Fixed (I prefer the small page numbers in prose as opposed to a super long ref list, say as in Jack Hobbs) Zepppep (talk) 19:12, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

• The deadlink still is not working for me, and just goes to search.com. It is also marked as a deadlink in the reference section.

Still referring to #39? Worked for me. #88 was a dead link and it has been removed. Zepppep (talk) 19:12, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

• Refs 4, 61 and 88 are showing as redirects. This is not actually an issue, but it is worth (if possible) updating the url to avoid possible future linkrot. But feel free to ignore this one.

1. 4 I the USA Today article, with video and everything. #61, I get a The Madison Courier article from Google News archives. The article was written from South Bend, Ind. I'm not sure if this is a discrepancy we might have in browsers or what. Since I appear to not be having any issues, this might be something I would ask you as the reviewer to address if you feel it's an issues. Scout's honor, I can see the pages! #88 has been removed, as it wasn't necessary.

• Not a GA issue, but I personally would use a template for the block quotes.

Added

• I've left a couple of replies above for minor points.

I believe I've addressed the Landis issue; let me know if you think it still needs tweaking.

• I would also suggest, after this GA passes, getting a good copy-edit for the article. There are a few places where the prose may hold up a future FAC, but will not be a problem for this GA.

Indeed, I would go for PR at some point in time. GA is the first step and your strong review has certainly helped out a ton

I will pass once these final little issues are sorted. Sarastro1 (talk) 09:55, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I believe I have addressed all concerns. Let me know if you think there's anything else! Zepppep (talk) 20:27, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

All good, passing now and thank you for your patience! Sarastro1 (talk) 22:17, 31 October 2012 (UTC)