Talk:Blue Star Kachina

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This article was nominated for deletion on 12 January 2016. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

no citations

Over a year later this article still stands out. As a researcher with many years of study of Hopi culture, I've never heard or seen this end of the world idea presented. The cultural tradition refers quite specifically to a new age/time and not the end of the world which clearly continues in the next age. There are no apocalyptic predictions in the oral tradition of the Hopi. Please could the authors either cite credible research for this idea or remove it from the article as it is extremely misleading.

As with many interpretations of ancient oral traditions the authors are rarely able to fully grasp the views of the culture they document. Fortunately the Hopi have begun to have more of a world voice, their elders have spoken and translations made in English which they agree is their word are available. Voxez (talk) 21:46, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A more critical approach would include some additional information on Frank Waters, who himself is not Hopi and who got his information on Hopi mythology second-hand. His work has been sharply criticized by Hopis and may not be correct or accurate. It is also important to consider whether Frissell's information is reliable or not Hoopes (talk) 16:37, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When you say "some believe...", you must provide a citation. It is even better if you can also provide some critical context for evaluating the source of the information. Hoopes (talk) 16:48, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your entry is short on hyperlinks that would connect this entry to others in Wikipedia. Those can also help create a larger context within which the information can be evaluated. I'll add some, but you should consider adding others. Hoopes (talk) 16:48, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There are a number of things about the Blue Star Kachina as reported that sound suspicious. For example the discussion of a single Creator and destructions because of corruption sound a lot like Christian mythology. You should consider the possible effects of religious syncretism in this story, as well as particular interpretations by Waters and others. How do Hopis themselves view this mythology? Hoopes (talk) 16:57, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In general, your entry does not display much application of critical thinking. Your information primarily comes from one source (Frank Waters, who has been identified as problematic and unreliable. You have not gone to alternative sources--especially Hopi ones--to evaluate the Blue Star Kachina story from other perspectives. I think it's essential to note that indigenous sources should be consulted when writing about indigenous mythology. If you had done further searching, you would have found other sources critical of the interpretations presented by Waters. The assignment was to create an unbiased entry. However, your entry is biased towards particular interpretations, among them the references to extraterrestrials and the assertion that the prophecy may be related to mythology from the Mayas. I think that an examination of the latter would reveal that this is true only in a limited sense. That would have merited further mention and detailed sources, among them a reference to the Popol Vuh. It is in keeping things vague that inaccurate or biased myths are perpetuated. Hoopes (talk) 17:26, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note that Frank Waters is a believer in the reality of UFOs ("flying saucers") as extraterrestrial spacecraft. He has reported Hopi mythology in a way that supports his own interpretations. Waters also believed that there were historical links between Hopis and Mayas. A balanced presentation would include some critique of this perspective. In fact, an alternative interpretation would identify Waters as a promoter of pseudoscience and pseudoarchaeology Hoopes (talk) 17:31, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your "References" could be abbreviated if you were to include a full bibliography with complete citations for all of your references. These should be listed in alphabetic order with author, date, title, location, and publisher. Hoopes (talk) 17:38, 26 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Single source and conflicting side

This article seems to have been kept off the radar due to being an orphan and erroneously placed in the Wikipedia namespace. I've moved it to the article namespace and pointed out a few problems with it. Currently, the major flaw is that the article essentially regurgitates the point of view of just one man, Frank Waters, and claims this to be Hopi mythology. Waters may or may not be right, but in any case the article would benefit from alternate points of view, such as sources that analyze Waters' writings and provide criticism or commentary. A section on modern support or belief of his theories would also be useful, as like most apocalyptic predictions, the topic is primarily notable due to modern cults that adhere to it. Knight of Truth (talk) 12:04, 26 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In case it helps anyone there's a skeptical blog post here which may have leads to follow up further (suggests the "prophecy" was a late C20 invention): Did the Hopi Predict the End of the World? Robert Walker (talk) 03:23, 7 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Am going to add it, as it is by a WP:RS in this topic, the author Jason Colavito Robert Walker (talk) 16:03, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Am I a bit dense here.....

What are the "rivers of stone that make pictures in the sun" ??? Conspirasee1 (talk) 01:57, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Who knows? The original account of the "prophecies" is somewhat suspect anyway. However, I imagine Frank Waters (overly cited in the article) will have some ideas.Knight of Truth (talk) 02:01, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just re-read it. Perhaps buildings and architecture? I will leave it alone and revisit this interesting article another time. Cheers! Conspirasee1 (talk) 02:07, 21 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Asphalt roads and mirages? — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 11:56, 18 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Anasazi:Ancient Puebloans

I believe there is no definitive notations on these ancient peoples only scant stories from medicine man types in religious ceremonies and such.The reference to Hopi is I believe refering to the Navajo telling of the Anasazi or "Ancient Enemies".I believe THAT is the connection that has bearing to the Blue Star story.The "Sipapu" was historically believed to be a portal to the underworld in which the "ancient enemies" came here from.Being that we know barely anything about Anasazi and how they disappeared from history as they have I would say the portal to the underworld would be a plausible answer.I just watched the film "The Darkness" and it referred to this story and it scared the crap out of me. Again as these people disappeared some 10,000 years ago and such a long gap until others repopulated the areas Im afraid there is no citations but it doesn't mean it did not happen or will happen.There is a bright blue light outside right now as a matter of fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CF81:4380:4968:B447:25FC:2AD9 (talk) 03:18, 18 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism

I've just added a new section "Criticism" based on the post by the anthropologist Jason Colavito. Since this addresses the single source issue and it is no longer an orphan I have removed the multiple issues template. It should also help answer some of the concerns in other talk page comments here. Robert Walker (talk) 16:31, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Criticism section summary in lede

I forgot to say, sorry, in that previous edit I also added a short one sentence summary of the criticism section to the lede. Someone just removed that summary - I think it is normal to include summaries of any criticism in the lede so have restored it. If anyone thinks it should be removed please discuss here first, thanks! Robert Walker (talk) 05:26, 23 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]