Talk:Berchtold of Engelberg

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Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 05:43, 6 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Blessed Berchtold → Berchtold of Engelberg – MOS:HONORIFIC which links through to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (clergy) "Saints go by their most common English name, minus the "Saint", unless they are only recognisable through its inclusion." (shortcut MOS:SAINTS) "An ownership note on the back of the flyleaf ascribes the volume to Abbot Berchtold of Engelberg (1178-1197)" Relisted Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 01:21, 18 November 2013 (UTC) In ictu oculi (talk) 03:08, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Weak oppose. I support the general principle of moving away from the honorific "Blessed" whenever possible, but this individual doesn't seem to be commonly known by the name "Berchtold of Engelberg"; the website linked above is resonsible for most occurences of this term that I could find on the internet, and the Catholic Encyclopedia follows that reference's general practices by calling him "Blessed Berchtold". 168.12.253.66 (talk) 17:48, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I understand, sources are very thin in English for this monk. That's the 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia though, the New Catholic Encyclopedia 2003 doesn't do that - but it seems Berchtold von Engelberg has been dropped. Per WP:UE it's appropriate to default to the German name Berchtold von Engelberg, but in this case "von" isn't an aristocratic surname, it's simply his abbey. Also there's a WP:DAB problem in that several German Berchtold/French Berthold are "Blessed" in sources, eg Blessed Berthold of Garsten . In ictu oculi (talk) 23:06, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The multiple people called "Blessed Berchtold" are a good reason to move the article; I'm just not sure about "Berchtold of Engelberg" specifically. Of course, I also don't have any better suggestion. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 17:45, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well yes but then that's the problem with almost all the sources being in German "von Engelberg". Given that the Stiftsbibliothek English website "Berchtold of Engelberg" is 2010 and the old Catholic Encyclopedia "Blessed Berchtold" is 1910, of the two it seems okay to go with 2010. Also now following RM of his better-sourced predecessor as abbot to Frowin of Engelberg there's the WP:AT CONSISTENCY issue as well as MOS:HONORIFIC MOS:SAINTS WP:NPOV to consider. In ictu oculi (talk) 18:02, 18 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support per consistency with Frowin of Engelberg and HONORIFIC. --BDD (talk) 19:07, 26 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support per User:BDD — Amakuru (talk) 14:53, 27 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.