Talk:Blas de Lezo

Addressing POV and structure issues, future editing of biography and removal of most of "Battle of Cartagena" content

I have just made a quick edition to polish content, particularly from the introduction. I have eliminated most of the text referring to de Lezo's nickname. His injuries are quite an unusual aspect of this man's life so they deserve a mention. However, the fact that there is "no historical evidence" of whether he was called "mediohombre", "mi almirante" or simply "Blasito" as he walked the streets of Cartagena is rather unimportant.

I have also added a paragraph that summarises the current debate about the historical figure, which ties in with the section on "Lezomania" and goes some way towards addressing POV issues. I have reorganised the pictures to reflect this, and to put them closer to where they may be relevant.

The next step would be for someone with more expert knowledge to have a hard look at the actual biography. If nothing happens, I will heavily edit the text and remove most of the text under the Battle of Cartagena section, given that it is repeated from other articles and generally poorly written and referenced. Then, I think, we'll be able to remove the notice on neutrality, even if the article's quality is somewhat poor and would still need in-text citations. Unfortunately, I do not have access to the book materials.

MiG-25 (talk) 05:28, 28 March 2016 (UTC) This seems very sensible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.19.115.230 (talk) 01:16, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Actually, the nickname issue is only important and relevant in as much as it is insisted upon by ultranationalist commentators. That is, the issue in itself is irrelevant but once outlandish and unsubstantiated claims are made, these should be refuted if the historical record shows they are false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanningar (talk • contribs) 21:49, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

miscellaneous

Blas de Lezo y Olavarrieta, acquaintance as "Patapalo" (legstick), or later as "Mediohombre" (Halfman) for many wounds suffered along his military life (Pasajes, Guipuzcoa, 1687 - Cartagena de de Indias, on September 7, 1741, Spanish admiral), he was one of the best strategists of the history of the Spanish Navy.

All of the articles that I have referenced give his birth year as 1689, except for one 1688. The histories of his home town show February 3, 1689 as his bithdate. Bejnar 19:40, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

There is an evident problem with the claim that he was known as "Mediohombre" or "Pata de palo": there are no contemporary, or 18th or 19th century, references that he was ever called these names. They have been bandied about during the current Spanish bout of Lezomania, following the publication of the novel by Pablo Victoria. However, there is not a single reference to a reliable source. This should be pointed out. MA

It is totally wrong to quote from a novel without specifying that it IS a novel. Pablo Victoria's novelette "El día que España venció a Inglaterra" should not be used as a source. MA Why can this article no longer be modified?? It still contains assertions that are not backed up by evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.46.50.123 (talk) 22:36, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't quite understand this: "the British fleet was forced into ranges where they could only make short or long shots that were of little value". Which shots were of value? Middle-length shots? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.33.201.163 (talk) 21:41, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

Good point. Another of the rather wild claims being made about Lezo is that he somehow "invented" elevation in artillery by inserting wedges in the gun carriages (???). It is is also claimed in many sources that he "invented" chain-shot and bar-shot (???). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanningar (talk • contribs) 11:20, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Note that the title was not granted posthumousely but "in memory of". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanningar (talk • contribs) 00:19, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Blas de Lezo's death

Blas de lezo died from disease. This should be mentioned in the article. Refer to the Spanish encyclopedia article for Blas de Lezo:

El héroe falleció en dicha ciudad al contraer la peste, enfermedad generada en la ciudad por los cuerpos insepultos ocasionados por los sucesivos combates.

This can be roughly translated as "The hero perished in said city upon contracting the plague, a sickness brought to the city by the unburied corpses a result of the quick succession of combat."

The English article for him should be corrected. It claims "Blas de Lezo was mortally wounded in the siege of Cartagena, the defense of which was his greatest victory." --208.102.210.163 (talk) 04:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Um, thanks 83.49.42.3 for the fix, but your changes have serious grammatical errors. Could someone fix them? (I am the same person as above)--201.52.246.175 (talk) 23:35, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

{{editsemiprotected}} In this section, it says, "Blas de Lezo get ill of pest..." The word for Spanish La Peste is plague. The sentence should begin, "Blas de Lezo contracted the plague..." The rest can remain as is. Good work everyone on this article - this is the only real problem I see. -- ideaclimber.

 Done PeterSymonds (talk) 16:43, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Lezo's cause of death: the word in Spanish is "tabardillo", probably epidemic typhoid (Sanningar). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanningar (talk • contribs) 17:40, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

The "Stanhope"

It seems this vessel belonged to the East India Company rather than to the Royal Navy. No "Stanhope" appears on the list of British or English ships of the line, and no "Stanhope" took part in the naval battles in the 1690s & 1700s. "http://www.todoababor.es/articulos/bio_lezo.htm" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 09:45, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

Is there a problem with having an infobox? If so, please let us know, rather than just deleting it. --Bejnar (talk) 04:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Coins and plaque

On 21 May 2012, IP editor 83.44.31.226 added the following:

King George II ordered to build commemorative coins Vernon's victory, which was avoided drawing Lezo eyed, maimed and lame as was in fact in order not to give a weak enemy.

When at last the Spanish seaman undefeated Blas de Lezo defeated Vernon, King George II of England ordered his historians never write about it.

Don Blas de Lezo is considered one of the best strategists in the history of the Spanish Navy. In 2009 in Cartagena Colombia was released a plaque commemorating the heroic Spanish victory in which you can read:

"Here Spain beat England and her colonies." "With only 3,000 men and ingenuity, Lezo defeated an army of 25,000 men, over 4,000 men brought from Virginia by the half brother of George Washington"

I deleted the above because of lack of coherent English and lack of citation. Please feel free to properly integrate this information with proper supporting citations back into the article. The conclusory sentence about "best strategists" was duplicative of the lead, and added nothing. A properly cited brief quotation from a noted military historian might do in its place. This article current lacks a "Legacy" section. --Bejnar (talk) 21:12, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

I created a "Legacy" section, put the subsection on the ships named after him in it, and the statue, avenue, square and the 2011 plaque. I am not sure where in Cartegena the 2009 plaque is, I suspect that it is near the statue. However, it can be viewed here, and does not say precisely what IP editor 83.44.31.226 and the Spanish Wikipedia article on de Lezo indicated. It says:

Homenaje al Almirante D. Blas de Lezo y Olavarrieta Esta placa se colocó para homenajear al invicto almirante que con su ingenio, valor tenacidad dirigó la defensa de Cartegena de Indias. Derrotó aqui frente a estas mismas murallas a la armada británica de 186 barcos y 23.600 hombres más 4.000 reclutas de Virginia armada aun mas grande que la Invencible Española, que los británicos habian enviado al mando del Almirante Vernon para conquistar la ciudad llave y asi imponer el idioma inglés en toda la América entonces Española. Cumplimos hoy juntos españoles y colombianos con la última voluntad del Almirante, que quiso que se colorara una placa en las murallas de Cartegena de Indias que dijera: "Aqui España Derroto a Inglaterra y Sus Colonias" Cartegena de Indias, Marzo de 1741

namely in English translation:

Tribute to Admiral D. Blas de Lezo y Olavarrieta. This plaque was placed to honor the undefeated Admiral with his wit, courage, tenacity addressed the defense of Cartegena de Indias. Defeated here, against these same walls, was the British navy of 186 ships and 23,600 men, with over 4,000 Virginia recruits, armed even more than the Spanish Armada, which the British had sent under Admiral Vernon to conquer the city and thus impose English idiom [rule] on all Spanish America. We met today together, Spanish and Colombian, to fulfill the last will of the Admiral, who wanted a plaque that would ennoble the walls of Cartegena de Indias saying: "Here Spain beat England and Her Colonies" Cartegena de Indias, March 1741

That's not the same at all. I will correct the Spanish Wikipedia article. --Bejnar (talk) 05:02, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

A more correct translation would be: "Tribute to Admiral D. Blas de Lezo y Olavarrieta. This plaque was placed in honour of the undefeated Admiral who with his intelligence, courage and determination led the defence of Cartagena de Indias. Here, before these very walls, he defeated a British fleet of 186 ships and 23,600 men in addition to 4,000 recruits from Virginia, a fleet even greater than Spain's Invincible Armada, that the British had sent to conquer the key city and thereby impose the English language throughout all of what was then Spanish America. Spaniards and Colombians together, we are today fulfilling the last wish of the Admiral, who wanted a plaque to be set into Cartagena's walls with the inscription: 'Here Spain defeatd England and its colonies'. Cartagena de Indias, March 1741.". The problem with the inscription as with much of the hyperbole surrounding the episode is that Vernon never intended imposing the English language throughout Spanish America (see Vernon's instructions and his own despatches and opinions on the matter), the Spanish Armada had occurred 150 years before (a comparison is absurd) and that Lezo never said he wanted a plaque to be placed on the walls. Sanningar — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sanningar (talk • contribs) 11:36, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

recent additions

Recent additions read as if they were Spanish texts run through google translate - the english syntax and grammar is very poor.Tttom1 (talk) 06:17, 18 June 2012 (UTC.

Recent changes have merely returned to the rose-tinted exaggerations that so marred the original article. History is certainly more than heroics based on a very poor collection of cheap novelettes by ultranationalist propagandists. The entry needs a thorough re-write with proper sources and less bombast.

POV edits

Recent, June/July 2015, edits, by IP editor 83.36.74.116 and others, have introduced a great deal of language that is not NPOV. Such language includes adding "treacherously" to the phrase The incident was considered alongside various other cases of "Spanish Depredations upon British Subjects" and Vernon has send conmemorative coins of his victory, and was another shame for him. Not to mention poor English usage. --Bejnar (talk) 20:06, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

The article has been vastly improved by certain additions (namely about the "mediohombre" nickname and "contemporary Lezomania". The bulk, about the battle of Cartagena, is still wildly biased and generally based on unreliable sources blighted by heoric fiction and ultra-patriotic nonsense (MA). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.156.85.170 (talk) 14:28, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I thought I was the only one who think spanish monarchy-battles-achievements' pages were full of "heoric fiction and ultra-patriotic nonsense". I'm glad to know I am not alone. --178.60.0.47 (talk) 19:06, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

These two paragraphs are total nonsense: In May, Vernon returned to Cartagena de Indias in charge of 13 warships, with the intention of bombarding the city. Lezo reacted by deploying his six ships of the line so that the British fleet was forced into ranges where they could only make short or long shots that were of little value. Vernon subsequently withdrew. Monument in Plaza de Colón (Madrid) built to commemorate Admiral Blas de Lezo. The third attack on Cartagena de Indias took place March 13 - May 20, 1741, and was the largest action of the war. The British concentrated a large fleet consisting of 124 ships, including 2,620 artillery pieces and more than 27,000 men. Of that number, 10,000 were soldiers responsible for initiating a ground assault. There were also 12,600 sailors, 1,000 Jamaican slaves and macheteros, and 4000 recruits from Virginia led by Lawrence Washington (1718-1752), the elder half-brother of George Washington, future President of the United States. The defences of Cartagena de Indias comprised 3,000 soldiers between regular troops, Black & Afro-descendants militia,[6] 600 Indian archers, plus the crews and troops of six Spanish warships. Blas de Lezo's advantages consisted of a formidable primary fortress and numerous secondary fortifications. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.46.50.123 (talk) 22:38, 27 October 2015 (UTC)

The 20-gun Stanhope...

...according to the English archives it was the 20-gun Stanhope, a merchant frigate with a complement of 40 men. John Combes's letter of marque is dated on 22 November 1710._"http://abcblogs.abc.es/espejo-de-navegantes/2014/11/18/blas-de-lezo-una-revision-historica/" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.37.211.145 (talk) 13:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Addendum: on 20 March 1707 in the Mediterranean the HMS Resolution (70 guns) , under heavy attack by a French squadron, was set ablaze by her own crew to avoid capture. One of the British frigates escorting the "Resolution" was the HMS "Milford", under captain Philip STANHOPE, general Stanhope's brother. Captain Philip Stanhope was killed in action on 17 September 1708 off or on Minorca. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.40.198.144 (talk) 13:26, 2 December 2016 (UTC)

More info (and a source in English): The owners of the privateer "Stanhope" in 1710 were the merchants Thomas Foster and Charles Wilkinson, from London._"https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=27584". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.10.7.122 (talk) 12:23, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

The East India Company 'Stanhope (1714)

Most likely a different vessel. . Put on sale in 1727. 30 guns. 420 tons. In Bombay in 1715. Source: Baylus C. Brook's Sailing East: West-Indian Pirates in Madagascar (2018). Google too: "east india company ship stanhope". The dubious, will-of-the-wisp and rather apocryphal Stanhope of Lezo's enthusiasts could be a mixture the HMS Resolution (lost in 1707, 70 guns) plus John Combes's Stanhope (letter of marque from late 1710, 20 guns) plus the EICS Stanhope(1714-1727, 30 guns). According to copy-pasted Lezo's legend, in c.1710 in command of a frigate -the French Valeur, lezomaniacs say-, Lezo captured heroically the Stanhope of captain John Combs [sic], a powerful eastindiaman with 70 guns and 600 men on board. In 1710 Lezo was 21 years-old. And lezomaniacs pretend Lezo was in command of a frigate when 21 years-old. Ludicrous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.52.217.102 (talk) 10:29, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

John Combe's will (1739)?

According to the National Archives (google: "national archives john combes will 1739"), a certain John Combe's will dates from 28 November 1739. He was by then Mariner and Commander of Ship Prince Frederick of Calcutta, Bengal, East Indies. He could be the John Combes born in 1685 in Hastingleigh (Kent).

suggested name "RRS Blas de Lezo"

Here, a British research vessel was suggested to be named "RRS Blas de Lezo" (in an public poll), but that name proposal was deleted. Should this be mentioned somewhere around here? --Divof (talk) 09:44, 6 May 2016 (UTC) Irrelevant other than for nationalistic purposes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.40.172.227 (talk) 21:26, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

The winning proposal was Boaty McBoatface. Sanningar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.33.201.163 (talk) 21:43, 1 December 2016 (UTC)

A well-balanced Essay in Spanish

By Manuel Gracia Rivas, Maritime Museum, San Sebastian. In short: most of Lezo's biography is open to doubt and most of his biographers are copy-pasting dubious deeds without corroborating primary sources._ "http://untzimuseoa.eus/images/itsas_memoria_07/28_manuelgracia_rivas.pdf" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.47.97.15 (talk) 12:23, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Spanish surnames

Please note that in traditional Spanish usage if a surname has 'de' in front this is not to be used if citing the surname alone: thus 'Miguel de Cervantes' or 'Blas de Lezo' but 'Cervantes' and 'Lezo', not 'de Cervantes' or 'de Lezo'. Despite the Spanish press in recent years having a tendency to not respect this custom, it is the worst sort of journalese. My name is 'Miguel de Avendaño' or 'Avendaño', not 'de Avendaño'. The absurd was reached when the Spanish football coach Vicente del Bosque ('del bosque' means 'of the woods or forest') was given the title 'Marqués de del Bosque' (ie, 'Marquis of of the Woods'). This is totally absurd. 'De' in Spanish has no connotations of nobility and was generally dispensed with from the 19th century onwards, although some people quite rightly insist on preserving the original forms of their names. MA (talk) 10:13, 3 April 2024 (UTC)