Talk:Black Mountain Side

Jansch's version

I've got a book called "The Songs and Guitar Solos of Bert Jansch" and, although it was written by Doug Kennedy, it looks like Jansch had some input into it and wrote some notes for each of the songs. The transcriptions seem pretty authentic, although Blackwaterside is quite difficult to play, even with all the notes written out! Anyway, Blackwaterside is written as "6th to D" (and capo on the 4th), not DADGAD. Page undoubtedly uses DADGAD however. Nevertheless, Jansch's notes say:

I learnt this song originally from Anne Briggs. It's another of these seduction songs. The 'Irish Lad' is a sailor, or he may be a tinker. The accompaniment was nicked by a well-known member of one of the most famous rock bands, who used it, unchanged, on one of their records. Bluewave 16:48, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I really think that Black Water Side deserves its own article instead of a redirect. For no other reason than it is the original song, has been covered by more musicians and is the true "source" that should be referred to. The discussion of similarities and controversy here is certainly warranted here but as it is the original song is not getting its fair credit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.6 (talk) 10:29, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Good point....as long as we don't lose the fact that Page nicked Black Mountain Side virtually note for note from the Jansch guitar accompaniment to Blackwaterside (probably via the playing of Al Stewart). Bluewave (talk) 18:18, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Other versions of Black Mountain Side

Liam Clancy, of The Clancy Brothers, and Sandy Denny of Fairport Convention have also recorded versions of this song, around the same time as Page (Denny on The North Star Grassman, recorded 1971, and Clancy in various collections. He copyrighted his adaptation, in 3/4 time, with the title "Blackwater Side" in 1967.

--Carsonmac 01:59, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Instrument

Is page playing an acoustic guitar on the original recording? Is it a 12-string? Badagnani (talk) 00:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

it's a Gibson J-200

There's no 12-string guitar on this song?? Badagnani (talk) 18:17, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Three Albums

Is it noteworthy that this is the only song to appear on three albums, two of which were studio albums? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.247.244.120 (talk) 00:42, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Outside of compilations I believe it only appeared on Led Zeppelin I. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.120.161.6 (talk) 10:27, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Possible copyvio from Harper book

A section that I wrote has recently been removed on the grounds that it is supposedly a "blatant copyvio". I have restored it on the grounds that it isn't. The section is certainly based on the very well researched (and much longer) account in the Harper book, but I did not copy Harper's words, except for the direct quote from Anne Briggs. Quoting a small section, with citations is perfectly normal practice for an encyclopedia or any scholarly work. So is summarising someone else's work in my own words (again with citations to the original). Bluewave (talk) 11:10, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Joan Baez recorded this in the early 1960's

Joan Baez recorded this in the early 1960s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.132.13.23 (talk) 03:03, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Blackwaterside, Jansch

I've reinstated a few edits that a user was challenging. I will explain:

1. Remove "Blackwaterside" discussion from "Song Structure" section. Well, it has nothing to do with song's structure, right? It's about the song's origin.
2. Mention of Blackwaterside to the intro. The Blackwaterside connection is an important theme of the article, so it deserves a mention in the head.
3. Mention other performers of Blackwaterside in the "Blackwaterside" section - not really necessary, but does give some more background. (I was restoring material from earlier editors.)
4. Mention Zep's use of Jansch's guitar arrangement. This controversy is the whole point of paragraphs 2-4 in this section. This material needs (IMO) a summarizing intro sentence or it won't really make sense to a first-time reader.

Cheers, Chris 24.69.167.26 (talk) 15:22, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, do not lecture me about Wikipedia policy. Secondly, the article has remained stable for months, I repeat months, - then we have two anonymous IP addresses from Canada (I suspect from the same person) come along in the space of days, claiming to re-edit the article on the basis of "controversy". If this issue is as you claim about the song "Blackwaterside" why don't you do the logical thing and create the article "Blackwaterside". NoCaseToAnswerFor (talk) 16:00, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

If I don't hear from you in 24 hours, I will create the "Blackwaterside" article myself and move information pertaining to that song to that article. NoCaseToAnswerFor (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:06, 28 December 2010 (UTC).

A few points:

• Wikipedia policy. Your editing behaviour gave me the impression you weren't acquainted with some key WP policies. I'm glad we've cleared this up.
• Article stability. So what? There's no rule against editing stable articles.
• Two Canadian IPs. I'm Canadian, and I've edited this article from two computers. That's probably what you're seeing. No mystery, no violation of any WP policy AFAIK.
• Blackwaterside. Someone might want to create such an article, but I have no obligation to do so. Even if a separate article existed, this article would still need to cover the Jansch/Blackwaterside controversy.
• Removing material. If you want to remove material from this article, by all means do so, but I (or any other editor) may challenge your edits, at which point you would be expected to discuss them.

It's pretty clear from your comments that you disagree with my edits, but it's hard for me to say exactly why, since you've given no specifics. I offered rationales for each of the four edits I made. If you disagree with one or more them, that would be a good place to continue the conversation.

Cheers, Chris 24.69.167.26 (talk) 16:54, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

I've already made my point clear. The above is what makes your argument irrational - you're saying you want to discuss "Blackwaterside" and so-called "controversy" but you don't want to create an article called "Blackwaterside". Articles aren't toilet walls. If you want to argue about "Blackwaterside", it would be far more logical to talk about the song and associated "controversy" there. As I've already said, the legal issues involving the song have already resolved themselves - the legal advice given to Jansch was that he wouldnt succeed in court. That is already made clear in the existing article. Now if the issue here is people covering "Blackwaterside", it would again make far more logical sense to discuss this issue on an article called "Blackwaterside", considering they involve that particular song rather than Page's version. NoCaseToAnswerFor (talk) 17:31, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Discussion and content concerning "Down by Blackwaterside"/"Blackwaterside" has now been moved to "Down by Blackwaterside". NoCaseToAnswerFor (talk) 23:53, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

"The legal advice given to Jansch was that he wouldnt succeed in court". Not quite true. From memory (of Janch's biography), the advice was that he would have to pay half the legal costs himself and, although he stood a good chance of winning in court, he would be opening a can of worms about the copyright status of traditional songs. Also, it's pretty clear that Jansch was more interested in devoting his life to making music than to pursuing expensive legal battles. No it is not appropriate to remove all discussion of the facts surrounding where Page learnt the song from the article on Black Mountain Side. Bluewave (talk) 10:02, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

It is appropriate because the song in question regarding Al Stewart was "Blackwaterside" and not "Black Mountain Side" - as was most of the discussion on covers by other artists. Totally appropriate. What I find puzzling is why no-one, including yourself Bluewave, did not at any stage create the "Down by Blackwaterside"/"Blackwaterside" article. It's almost as if the sole purpose here is to engage in a smear campaign rather than have anything to do with the actual songs in question. You can make any accusation under the sun but unless proven by a court of law, it is nothing more than an accusation. Wikipedia is about facts, not opinions. NoCaseToAnswerFor (talk) 00:15, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

No one is engaging in a "smear campaign" or making "accusations". It is part of the history of Black Mountain Side, and is well-sourced, that Page learnt the guitar arrangement from Bert Jansch, via Al Stewart. Of course, that belongs in this article. Bluewave (talk) 09:22, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

I have restored a mention of this origin of the guitar arrangement. This has been a long-standing and well-sourced part of the article. If you want to get rid of it, you need to get a consensus to do so. Bluewave (talk) 09:53, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Consensus? I find it a bit strange that you appear here the next night after the last anonymous IP revert, after a gap of months. It's too coincidental for my liking. As User:WikiLibs has shown, it's quite easy to fool people you're editing from a different part of the world - he had IP addresses in 5 separate countries on 3 different continents. NoCaseToAnswerFor (talk) 10:15, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Page did not learn Bert Jansch from Al Stewart, we have a claim he did from one book ie. one person's opinion, told to another, that's never been tested beyond that. NoCaseToAnswerFor (talk) 10:19, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

You seem to be making wild accusations against me again. Please don't do that! I have a very well-researched source for the statement that Page learnt it from Jansch via Stewart. What is your source for saying he didn't? The fact that Page's version is based on Jansch's is very well established. See for example, Erik Davis's book "Led Zeppelin IV", where he says "Jimmy Page lifted major elements of Black Mountain Side from Jansch's 1966 gem Blackwaterside." I think the Dazzling Stranger book is the only one that has researched the Al Stewart but it is fully cited. Sources vary as to how much they think the Page version is influenced by Jansch. Some only speak of an "influence"; Jansch himself says "nicked and used unchanged". However, I can't see the reason for leaving it out. We don't need a court to decide if Page "lifted" Jansch's arrangement: a court would decide if, in doing so, he had broken the law. That is not our concern here. Bluewave (talk) 10:36, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Not wild at all. For the past few days an anonymous IP reverts changes and then the day he doesn't appear, you make a comment on the Talk page, then revert changes. What does one make of that? Very odd either way. What is you connection with Jansch? I noticed a number of your edits concern the folk music scene in Britain. NoCaseToAnswerFor (talk) 11:00, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, I have not made any edits to Wikipedia using an anonymous IP address since I created my user account in the name of Bluewave several years ago. Please do not make wild accusations that I have done so. I have no connection to Jansch, other than liking his music: I also have no connection to Page, other than liking his music too. A number of my edits do indeed concern the folk scene in Britain. There is no secret about that. What is your point? Bluewave (talk) 12:09, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

Bluewave: I have made some anonymous edits to this article over the last few weeks. Let me point out that anonymous editing is a completely legitimate practice in Wikipedia.

NoCaseToAnswerFor: You're confusing actionability under civil law with verifiability in Wikipedia. They are totally different concepts.

I'm in a rush right now, but may be coming back to this discussion and/or editing this article (or the Blackwaterside article) again sometime next week.

Cheers, Chris. 24.69.167.26 (talk) 02:21, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Chris, yes, making anonymous edits is completely acceptable. However, NoCaseToAnswerFor appeared to be accusing us of being the same person. Using anonymous edits AND a username is not acceptable, if used to deceive other editors. Also, of course, making unfounded accusations about other editors and assuming bad faith is not acceptable. Cheers. Bluewave (talk) 10:40, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Wow two editors claiming to be different but both signing off using "cheers". Way to go. In response to anonymous: I'm not not confused at all - again more personal attacks towards me in the guise of condescension. It's one thing stating "X" did that, it's another thing changing the wording around so "X" did far worse than what actually happened. Case in point, some of wording of your edits where you changed the meaning of the word under the guise of "summarising" - when it is called spin-doctoring by any other name. I should also point out that at no stage did anyone create the "Down on Blackwaterside" article, I did that myself. This is really surprising to the casual observer and reveals the editors involved above aren't even interested in the song, just making accusatory claims on this article. NoCaseToAnswerFor (talk) 10:56, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Jansch and plagiarism

This article does not seem to be NPOV. It barely mentions Jansch at all, even though the original is widely thought to be a direct copy/imitation of an arrangement by Jansch. It looks like some Zeppelin fans/fanatics edited out all the relevant sections. This article probably needs to be entirely rewritten.66.220.250.160 (talk) 15:14, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

There were sections in the article addressing this subject but they were removed by User:HelenWatt with this edit and by user JacksOrion with this edit and by user NoCaseToAnswerFor with this edit. Piriczki (talk) 16:26, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

So put it back. 173.88.246.138 (talk)