Talk:Black Hispanic and Latino Americans

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Images

Why do images keep getting removed? Every other article about an American ethnic group (Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans, Chinese Americans, Korean Americans, African Americans) all have sample images of celebrities from that ethnic group.

The people added to these images were people featured on the article List of Afro-Latinos. So if you dispute that they are Black Hispanics, please remove them all from that article as well.

Why should this be the only Wikipedia article about an ethnic group that doesn't feature photos?

--Mezaco (talk) 06:07, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

I added some links & 1 photo cause that was all i'm skilled enough to do. Hopefully, someone will put photos up for the links i provided.I'm not lazy, I just lack motivation. (talk) 03:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Most of the people on the pictures are not Black at all, but whitish. It's funny how Cameron Diaz is featured on both this page and the White Hispanic page, LOL! Someone with some more knowledge on the subject needs to revise this article! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.234.92.239 (talk) 18:49, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't know WHY on Earth someone added pictures of white Hispanics to the article, but I've replaced them with appropriate pictures. Dime789 (talk) 08:16, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Sooooooo, when are y'all gonna put the images back. I'm not lazy, I just lack motivation. (talk) 03:58, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Inclusion of Latinos descended from populations colonized by the Portuguese

The word Latin alone implies this. This would included those from Brazil, São_Tomé_and_Príncipe, and Cape Verde. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bab-a-lot (talk • contribs) 22:29, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Carly Simon picture as controversial

User:Wikiscribe deleted the image of Carly Simon in the info box citing it as controversial. Why? Bab-a-lot (talk) 16:45, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Because there is conflicting reports on her ancestry even on her own article ,two there are better and plenty more and better examples of Black Hispanics please do not put her back again[1].--Wikiscribe (talk) 04:10, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

How can you say there are conflicting reports when the Carly Simon article CLEARLY cites where she stated this in an interview she gave in 2004. She's Black and Cuban.. The interview over-rides the source you gave from www.nndb.com. The page is obviously not updated. It doesn't even cite the source pertinent to her race identity. However, it does cite the source pertinent to her being one-quarter Jewish in ancestry. Furthermore, race identity, hence social identity, and actually race/ethnic heritage are two different matters. A person can identify mono-racially, yet be racially/ethnically mixed in ancestry. For example, Barack Obama and Malcolm X, both are black men; however Barack Obama's mother was white, and Malcom X's mother was half white. Bab-a-lot (talk)

References

Consensus on InfoxBox Gallery

Current gallery

I think that the below shows a fair representation of the phenotype distribution within the demographic. I gather that any more than 8 images in the gallery interferes with page usability. Please, nominate Infobox image gallery changes below and let's discuss this.

Bab-a-lot (talk) 19:53, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Well firstly, a gallery can have more than eight pictures. The African American article's gallery has twelve pictures, and the White American article's gallery has sixteen pictures. The usability of those article are fine. Anyway, I can't imagine why you think I intentionally left dark-skinned people out of my version of the gallery. I did no such thing. Zoe, Christina, Juan, Sessilee; all four of them are brown. Sessilee Lopez is actually a chocolate brown color. Concerning skin color, there is no difference among the folks in either of our galleries other than Carly Simon of your gallery, who is white-skinned, and I put her in my last edit since I felt that you were stressing her inclusion. I also added Rosie Perez and Rosario Dawson, who is also very light. I made sure from my first edit on this page that I include folks of different colors, so you can't hit me with that. My proposed gallery also features much more notable people: Both Mariah Carey and Adriana Lima are worldwide stars, Mariah a legendary singer and Adriana a Victoria's Secret Angel; both Juan Williams and Soledad O'Brien are very well known and regular political commentators; Juan is with Fox News, a worldwide news station and the most watched news station in America by far, and Soledad is with CNN, and she hosted CNN's extremely successful series, Black In America 1 and 2, as well as Latino in America. Look, Mariah Carey, Sessilee Lopez, Soldedad O'Brian, Juan William, and Amaury Nolasco all stay, and you can pick the other five that you would like to have in the gallery, and then that will be ten pictures. That is fair. I pick five and you pick five, because we can't keep going back and forth with this. Dime789 (talk) 03:01, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I reverted the changes because the full aesthetic spectrum of this demographic is not represented in your selection, and neither was it represented in your previous section. This is your current selection, from darkest to lightest:

This is your selection from earlier today, from darkest to lightest(Revision as of 19:06, 24 November 2009):

You did leave out dark skin people. Zoe, Christina, Juan and Sessilee may be brown skinned, but they are not dark brown in complexion like Fantasia Barrino as well as many other dark Afro-Latinos who are darker than a brown paper bag. For example:

There is a difference between the two sets of images. Your selection leans towards more racially averaged features and the middle phenotype, whereas my selection provides a more complete, and accurate representation of what Black/Afro Latinos look like - the Black, Blended and White phenotype. You don't portray the darkest (blackest) or lightest (whitest) phenotype of Afro-Latinos. This is important in visually understanding what an Afro- or Black-Latino looks like. You say Sessilee is actually chocolate, well there needs to be a pictures that shows this chocolate complexion. Compared to the image of Fantasia Barrino, Gilbert Arenas and Shar Jackson, I do not see this dark complexion.

You also mentioned that the people in your selection are more 'more notable'. Any person that has an article about them on wikpedia is notable. The measure of nobility (which can be subjective) should not matter in illustrating the full aesthetic range of the demographic. Furthermore, why put emphasis of people the public already knows about, people who are literally over-exposed in the media? Wikipedia is a learning tool. Lesser known, yet equally significant, people should be highlighted as well. People should know about them, too.

Instead of making this article a popularity contest, why not make it about truth? And the truth is, Afro-Latinos/Black Latinos come in darker and lighter shades than what you've indicated via your image selection. Also, we should limit the selection down to 8, or 9, images. According the previous and recent editor feedback, more than 3 rows of images is WAY too many. Bab-a-lot (talk) 04:52, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

My goodness, all of this talk is not necessary. I only have five people that I'd like to see in the gallery. That's all! Five! Mariah Carey, Sessilee Lopez, Soldedad O'Brian, Juan William, and Amaury Nolasco. You go ahead and put whoever you want in the gallery, but just make sure that the five I want are all in there. I'm leaving the rest to you. Lastly, three rows of pictures is fine. Several articles about different groups of people have three rows of pictures, and several articles about different groups of people have more than nine pictures. Dime789 (talk) 05:24, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

No, we should come to a conclusion here first. Isn't that how talk works? Bab-a-lot (talk) 05:29, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

But this is a ridiculous thing to talk about. I just want five pictures, you add anyone else. What more is there to possibly talk about??? Nothing! This IS the resolution. Dime789 (talk) 05:34, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Great! Below is a selection of 11 images for the gallery. Basically a combination of my selection and your selection. They would distribute into 3 rows of 3 and 1 row of 2, totaling four rows of images. I want to discuss what, exactly, would be the best # of rows, to display in the info box, as recent edits indicate there should be a limit in image/row # due to excessive page scroll. Does this selection suffice? Should we ensure that we have citation proving heritage/ancestry for all individuals featured? I've listed citation in the reference section below for Carly Simon and further discussed it above.

Bab-a-lot (talk) 05:59, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Continuing from here, yes, I think that selection is fine. Regarding the rows of images, I think the first row should hold three images, and the second and third rows should hold four images. This shape contains less rows and the gallery looks more compact. The shape would appear as follows:

       

That's an attractive shape to me. Also, regarding the order of the images, I'd say don't arrange the images in order of the person with the darkest skin color to the person with the lightest skin color, or vice versa. That would seem too much like a point was made to segregate the people by skin color. I don't have a problem with Carly Simon being in the gallery. If she's said herself that she has black in her, then I don't see any reason not to believe her. But others might doubt her inclusion in the gallery, so in that case it'd probably be convenient to add citation next to her name below the gallery. Dime789 (talk) 02:12, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Alright then; I suppose it's okay to put the gallery back up with the pictures we've agreed on. Dime789 (talk) 04:01, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

there are citaions that cite her as white and also in a bio book that is referenced in her article it say nothing about afro cuban ancestry there are conflicting sources on her, so it is best not to have of all people carly simon as the poster child for black hispanics if you are dead set on having white skinned afro ancestry hispanic for which there is no ambiguity how about Soledad O'Brien or Mariah Carey--Wikiscribe (talk) 06:14, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

That is fine. There are other white phenotype, white skinned, Afro-Hispanics to consider. I just want to show representation of the full spectrum, from darkest to lightest. O'Brien and Cary are racially ambiguous in phenotype, and not necessarily white in phenotype. Yes, they are light skinned, but I want to show the classic 'white' look in Afro-Latinos. I am Afro-Hispanic and am well aware of the full range, something rarely portrayed anywhere in the media. I just think that's important - inclusion, like what was done for the Brazilian People article which includes the full race/phenotype spectrum of Brazilians. Give me a moment to get the replacement. Bab-a-lot (talk) 06:23, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Also they should be American citizens or residents, this is about USA Afo Hispanics --Wikiscribe (talk) 06:39, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

yes, i understand that. I believe that the ones listed thus far all are/were US citizens. I know Celia Cruz was Cuban born, but I think she became a US citizen before passing. She passed on US soil. Bab-a-lot (talk) 14:46, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Celia Cruz lived in New Jersey and is even Buried in the Bronx she is fine to have but it is to bad that picture is not very good it is very blurry--Wikiscribe (talk) 17:37, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

Adriana Lima should be included, because this article is about Black Hispanics from the Americas, not necessarily exclusively the US. Also, because the African diaspora ranges in extremes, one photo of Carly Simon doesn't adequately display the diversity. And there should be more males. Given the subject matter, it doesn't make sense to limit the subjects to any region within the Americas, especially a country that has a smaller Hispanic AND African descented population than other regions, i.e. Brazil.I'm not lazy, I just lack motivation. (talk) 04:13, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Is there citation saying Alex Rodriguez has African ancestry

I am not saying this is untrue. But we need citation. At least judging from appearance, he appears to be much lighter and whiter than the rest of the people shown. He also has green eyes. TomNyj0127 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:34, 20 May 2010 (UTC).

2x, although he is Dominican he looks much more like a White-Indigneous or even pure European than Black. Yes there are tan Whites especially along the med sea. I also disagree with Dania Ramirez —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.54.35.90 (talk) 19:56, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

He is probably mixed with Black. I remember him stating that he was half Black and half Spanish. Secret killer (talk) 04:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

What source did you here that from though? It doesn't matter what the possibilities are. No one is in a position to assume. It's not like it is even that physically obvious either. TomNyj0127 (talk) 17:15, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Suggestion to Separate into different articles for Black Hispanic (and/or African Hispanic), Black Latino (and/or African Latino), Black Hispanic American and Black Latino American

The different labels indicated different demographic that do not always overlap in ancestry, identity and/or heritage.

Firstly, there is a different between Latins and Latino people. While both groups have inherited culture and language from any of the Latin speaking countries the Latino label is reserved specifically for those who descent from the colonial legacy of the Americas.

Secondly, not all Hispanic people are Latino. Let's take the root demographic for example Indigenous/Native Spaniards of Spain. Their ancestry might range anything from Basque/Nordic, Southern Spaniard (with some North African admixture), or Gitano. These are long-term natives of Spain/Iberia. When they immigrate into the United States of America, they do not become Latino. Native Spaniards do not identify themselves as Latino, there is an identity and concept specifically reserved for the Americas. There are African descendants of mixed Hispanic ancestry who do not identify as Latino. Their histories are different. When they immigrate into the U.S. or the rest of the Americas, alone they have their own identity, history, consideration, apart from Latinos.

Subsequently, the indigenous people of Portugal do not consider themselves Latino.

Thirdly, the other populations of former colonies of Spain outside of the Americas (Equatorial Guinea, Spanish Equatoguineans, and the Philippines) are not Latino populations. They are African Hispanics (African identity having priority over Black identity) and Asian Hispanics. In these populations there is considerable mixed ancestry with Iberian Spaniards, minus Latino influence/ancestry. There are Asian Hispanics who are of either Negrito ancestry - the black indigenous population of parts of Asia, African-American, or African ancestry. They might even be mixed with Afro-Latino, but there needs to be a distinction between Black Hispanics and Black Latinos within the Asian diaspora (Afro-Asian Hispanics and Latinos).

Fourthly, there needs to be away to include African Portuguese of continental Africa. For example the indigenous African and Portuguese mixed populations of Angola, Cape Verde, Guinea Bissau, Mozambique and São Tomé and Príncipe are not African Hispanics, or African Latinos. But there are tied to the same Latin influence the population of Brazil has minus the Indigenous American heritage. However, there are 'some' cases where there is some admixture from repatriated Cuban and Brazilian slaves in former Portuguese (and Spanish) colonies. Still, this doesn't make the entire populations of these countries Latinos.

Fifthly, perhaps there could be an article specifically for African Latins, or African Portuguese to included the rather substantial population on the continent that is Portuguese speaking, cultured, and/or identified. It would also be where the diverse African descended population living in Portugal could be expanded upon.

Example: While African descendants in Brazil (Portuguese speaking, mixed) are Latino, Portuguese descendants in Angolan (Portuguese speaking, identified and mixed) are not. And neither group is Hispanic; however, they are both part of the Latin diaspora. When the latter immigrates into the United States what would they be considered as since they do come from a heritage of Portuguese identity, culture, language and ancestry?

Sixthly, the immigration of Afro- Latino, presently and during colonial times, into Spain, Portugal and it's subsidiaries should also be mentioned. The same could be mentioned of those immigrating into other Latin based countries like Italy.

Finally, it could be discussed the African descended population (minus the Latino element) in these other Latin based countries, like Italy. Bab-a-lot (talk) 13:40, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Removing original research from demographics section

I've just removed the following text:
"There is also increasing intermarriages and offspring between non-Hispanic blacks and Hispanics of any race, especially between Cubans, Dominicans, Colombians and Puerto Ricans with African Americans, which increases both the Hispanic ethnic and black racial demographics. [2]"
The US Census Factfinder has no publications specifically discussing such intermarriage, and the online tables do not allow for such cross-referencing (i.e., having elicited any such information, although there is no actual way to do so, is WP:OR). Any such content must be sourced from a reliable secondary source. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 01:51, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

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Wiki Education assignment: Adding Immigrants Quantitative Sources for Latinx Immigration History

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