Talk:Black Country/Archive 1

The Black Country

Is there a definitive answer as to why it's called "The Black Country". I believe the name pre-dates the Industrial Revolution, and so the latter explanation seems possible? Mintguy 00:54 Apr 23, 2003 (UTC)

The explanation of the Black Country's name stemming from it being an industry- and smoke-filled area is probably a folk etymology much like 'to insure promptness' being the origin of 'tip'. I'd go with the coal. --Matthew 13:26, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The smoke filled area seems to be a very common explanation of the name, and that is what is said on the Black Country Living Museum website. Really we should give airing to both views, seem as there both used. G-Man 21:32, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

It would certainly be helpful if there was a paragraph specifically concerning the possible origins of the name as it is an obvious question whose answer is only hinted at in the text. Orangejon 11:33, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Black Country dialect

The Black Country Dialect is very old, and can be very confusing for outsiders. The language is said to be a throw back to "Olde English" and still contains words such as Thee, Thy and Thou. "'Ow B'ist", meaning "How beist thou?" is a common greeting, with the typical answering being "'Bay too bah", meaning "I bayn't be too bad". Black country "folk" as they are called are very proud, and resist hints at any relationship to people living in Birmingham, calling Birmingham "Brum-a-jum". Black Country folks take pride in being simple, hardworking people.

There is definately something to be said about the Black Country dialect, but I'm not sure about the above paragraph. I live in Wolverhampton, and I haven't heard the above greetings, or any serious use of Thee, Thy and Thou. Perhaps these usages are extinct in the city, but survive elsewhere? If so, the fact deserves a mention.

Perhaps it should say "the traditional black country dialect" and note that it is not so common now perhaps G-Man 17:42, 14 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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"Ah bist/ ow bist" is Lye speak. Lye is just outside Stourbridge and has it's own language (like old German) dating back to medieval times.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.249.18 (talk • contribs) 11:52, 18 July 2005

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There was this episode of Floyd on Britain where he cooked up his version of Black Country beef in beer and served it to a local boatman. When pressed for comment, i can swear the man was speaking a totally different language! couldn't make out a single damned word of what the boatman said! incredible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.142.96.184 (talk • contribs) 11:25, 22 November 2006

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An interesting point that I'd never really thought of, but which was pointed out to me my a Scotsman recently, is the Black Country simplification of the verb "to be".

I am = I am

You are = You am

He is = He is

We are = We am

You are = You am

They are = They am

I think I'm correct in saying that "he is" remains as "he is". I don't ever recall saying "'e am, ay 'e?"

In the negative it's even more consistent, every ending for "is/are not" being "ay".

I ay

You ay

etc

Mick P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.181.235.241 (talk • contribs) 08:22, 2 August 2006

Capital of the Black Country

Wot, no mention of Dudley as being the undisputed capital of the Black Country? ;-) --Matthew 13:26, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)

In all seriousness here, there appears to be undue prominence given to Wolverhampton in defining the area of the Black Country. The article reads, to me, that the Black Country is Wolverhampton plus lesser environs. This is odd for the following reasons 1) the article states that Wolverhampton's inclusion in the Black Country is uncertain; 2) Dudley is widely acknowledged as being the 'capital' of the Black Country; and 3) both Dudley MBC and Sandwell MBC have more inhabitants than Wolverhampton (15th, 20th, and 44th respectively, according to List of English Districts by Population. Matthew 19:26, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Well, Wolverhampton is by far the largest town/city in the vicinity! The MBC areas of Dudley and Sandwell (and Walsall) contain several large towns within - Wolverhampton MBC does not. The location of Wolverhampton is generally reasonably well-known so defining the rough geographical location of the Black Country as the area to the south and east of the city (without including the city) makes sense, even if Dudley is the largest town within the actual Black Country.

How about Birmingham for being the largest town in the vicinity? It's not in the Black Country but nor, I would wager, is Wolverhampton! And in terms of size, Dudley isn't significantly smaller than Wolverhampton, which is reflected in its MBC being 15th largest in the country and not 44th.

I'm not sure that Wolverhampton's location is well known in its own right and without reference to Birmingham, which is much the same as can be said for Dudley. Personal experience (which is admittedly weak to be arguing from, but...) tells me that people are aware of both Wolverhampton and of Dudley. Matthew 18:59, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Dudley MBC contains the large towns of Stourbridge and Halesowen as well as Dudley itself, plus several other smaller towns. Dudley (the town)'s population is around 180,000, or about 70% of that of Wolverhampton. You could (if you wanted to) fairly sucessfully argue that the "true" area of Wolverhampton would include large swathes of South Staffordshire where there isn't a gap between the two; areas such as Essington, Codsall, Perton, Lower Penn and Westcroft. There isn't really an equivalent for Dudley - Himley's the neearest but there's a fair sized gap there!

MBC boundaries can't be taken as the size of the town that they are named after, as in 1974 when they were created, it was with the aim of achieving a particular size, that of over 250,000 people. Wolverhampton County Borough already had a larger population than that criteria, so the boundaries were not changed for the MBC; but Dudley CB didn't (and so was merged with Halesowen CB and Stourbridge); West Bromwich CB and Warley CB didn't, so were merged to form Sandwell MBC; Walsall didn't, so was merged with Aldridge & Brownhills UD.

How about we agree that Dudley's the largest town in the Black Country, being a bit bigger than Walsall; Wolverhampton per se isn't in the Black Country, although areas such as Bilston and Heath Town are; and that we leave the reference to the location of the Black Country as being basically the conurbation between Wolverhampton and Birmingham? To go back to your original point, there is no way that this article should appear as if "the Black Country is Wolverhampton plus lesser environs." It's not, and the article doesn't seem that way any more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.171.174.162 (talk • contribs) 11:07, 6 July 2005

That sounds like a good proposal to me. Stating that Dudley is the largest town in the Black Country would do away with the 'Wolverhampton plus lesser environs' feel. Do you want to make the relevant edit? Matthew 20:39, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

It strikes me that it's entirely uncontroversial to say that Dudley is the largest town in the Black Country, whether or not all of Wolverhampton is included, since Wolverhampton is now a city! As a native Wulfrunian, my hunch is that people in Wolves tend to include it as a Black Country place more as a way of distinguishing ourselves from Birmingham than for any other reason! Loganberry (Talk) 15:59, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

I dont think It's ever read like that, at least thats not how I've read it. G-Man 21:30, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Raybould (1973) says the boundaries are controversial, but described it as an area south of Staffordshire and North of worcestershire with Dudley at its centre. Pyrotec 21:55, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

The where and what of the Black Country

Following on from the above comments, I am setting out a more explicit area for discussing 'where' and 'what' the Black Country is.

It not just a question of why it's called the Black Country, but also a question of what and where it is. Burritt defined the Black Country as the area within a twenty-mile radius of Birmingham Town Hall (Burritt, 1868: 6). This may have been idiosyncratic, but his powers of observation are well-documented, so his view must also be considered. Aside from that, the Black Country boundary has not been emphatically set out nor agreed. Some say it is roughly contiguous with the coalfield. Others have distinct opinions about particular places. Michael Raven (Black Country Towns and Villages, Tettenhall, Broadside, 1991) regards Smethwick as partly within and partly outside of the Black Country. On the basis of such disparate accounts, I think it is safe to say that the Black Country is a socially-defined state of mind defined partly by disassociation from Birmingham, despite the intricacy of links between them two places. In a very broad sense, even the regional dialect can be regarded as a socially-defined boundary, and that the Black Country as defined by dialect is a distinct area roughly contiguous with some of the other definitions of place. (Even though a Walsall accent is distinct from a Dudley accent, and so on.) In a similar vein, conversations with people like the Tipton town historian and the director of the Wednesbury Art Gallery have revealed localised definitions based on notions of 'this town is not Black Country, but the neighbouring town definitely is', or that the Black Country is defined by social characterstics like the (former) parochialism and hard graft of villages across the plateau. e-tat 2005-10-17 00:56:18

email me

I'm from blakenal heath, and my writings are as acurate from what I know of my OWN culture, I wrote in detail the common phrases, heard by some of the older people around the bloxwich area. Every time I put something up some idiot keeps pulling it down, half of their shit is wholly innacurate, "ow be-ist though"???????? its "ow bin ya" or "warro" "warro duck" or in walsall "a yo auriute aer kid" . I went to the Australian english and they're saying that irish influenced austrailian english, just because they use me for my warra joke!!!!!!! Austrailian english sounds nothing like irish, neither does cockney really, just because one man wrote the book two years in south wales, he only refered to cockney because it was probably the only diallect he knew that sounded simular, but If he had exposiure to the black country diallect he might of wrote that diffrently. For starter, in london its "einit" but in the black country its "aye it" you dont see many australians say einit????. Also I read under estuary English that estuary english takes some from australian and american????? mmmmmmm The truth is that esturary english takes bits from the black country language. Some one even wrote that austrailian takes its language from irish based on the fact that that me for my is common, but thats lousy wishful thinking on their behalf example "me mon" is black country "my man" "my freind". Its obvious to anyone local that the broadest black country dialect inflenced the broad australian dialect. But they keep avoiding the issue because "oh we can't sound like the brits can we" because of the steriotype of "snobby britain" they assume that all brits talk like that, and theyre can't possibly be a roots accent from england. It needs more research. Wether its my grammar or I need to write it a bit better but what I know is sound. I was quite offended under the definition of pork rinds "regarded by the british as somewhat plebian", thats standing up to the upperclass steriotype, so theyre saying I'm a pleb for eating pork rinds??????? since when were pork rinds considered plebian, the first rinds were made here in the black country, and they're very popular. There needs to be some unbiased, unsteriotypical research based on real evidence, ie voice recordings.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.21.98 (talk • contribs) 17:40, 19 January 2006

black country

Sos, its messy aye it. I think the black country streteches from cradley to hendsford and isnt really a regional diallect but rather a diallect of a social tribe, bloke culture of of the strife of the anglo folks who descend from the miners, metal bashers,and leather workers of the last century.

I think there are two varieties, rural and urban, and I think that some parts of south staffordshire with that nasally sounding drawl of tony butler like lower penn, cheslyn hay, hendsford, should be looked as the rural.

and the diallect s residential areas of walsall, tipton, west brom, dudley, wolverhamton as urbane black country spoken by the older white people still living in these towns should be called urban.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.21.98 (talk • contribs) 19:56, 24 April 2006

Yode(you would) .

Yole(you will) .

Dayna(daint want to).

Downa(don't want to).

Dow(don't) .

Daye(did not).

Wow(won't).

Arr(yes) .

Tha(that) .

Thas(thats).

Aye(aint) .

Gonna(going to).

Doowih(do it).

Arl(i will) .

Awow(I won't).

Iuye (I).

Tharaye(that aint).

Tharis(that is).

Dayah(d'aint you).

Dowya(don't you).

Isi(is it) .

Whera(where are).

Whoa(who are).

Yoe(you).

Wheramya(where are you.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.21.98} (talk • contribs) 17:01, 29 April 2006

Edited

In editing this article, I have deleted the following as I am not sure that it is correct:

When King Henry VIII gave Rowley its royal charter (to become Rowley Regis) the town was referred to as "Rowley in the Blacke Countrie". This was long before the Industrial Revolution.

Having editted the article (and added to it), I have removed the 'cleean up' tag from it. I have not touched the dialect section, as I am not qualified to do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peterkingiron (talk • contribs) 21:11, 1 May 2006

Four Boroughs

I've had to amend certain key inaccuracies.The definition accepted by Governments both UK and Europe are the Four Boroughs. It is just confusing to say Cannock may be in- it is not; and that Smethwick is not in- it is in. For example of how clear the border is with Birmingham; look at the Lordswood Road and Bearwood Road junction with the Hagley Road.

There is also no 'capital' recognised- Dudley just thinks that it is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.121.208 (talk • contribs) 21:42, 10 November 2006

Had to Remove Quote on Dialect

I removed this text:

"The dialect of the Black Country area remains perhaps one of the last examples of early English still spoken today. The word endings with 'en' are still noticeable in conversation as in 'gooen' (going), callen (calling) and the vowel 'A' is pronounced as 'O' as in sond (sand), hond (hand) and mon (man) also rot (rat). Other pronunciations are 'winder' for window, 'fer' for far, and 'loff' for laugh - exactly as Chaucer's English was spoken. Local dialect was (and probably still is to a lesser degree) quite distinctive between the different towns and villages of the Black Country."

There are two problems:

1. It's directly lifted from http://www.sedgleymanor.com/dictionaries/dialect.html

and putting it in quotes doesn't make that OK. Copyright law only allows you to quote text when you are commenting on the quote.

2. It's from an amateur linguistic site and has all sorts of linguistic problems like calling -en verb endings an archaic feature, while equating them with -ing endings. (-en could be either an archaic infinitive ending, or a modern phonetic corruption of -ing, but not both.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.7.46.118 (talk) 22:10, 9 January 2007 (UTC).

The whole dialect deal

It's really very silly. The article assumes too much and almost takes a comedic tone. Furthermore, it goes on to deduce the attitude of all "Black Country folk" into one sentence. This is a terrible article, and I suggest that certain parts of it are revised. I'll go over it later if I have time. Schizmatic 18:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Map

Can we have a locator map for the article?

And, understanding that it is not well defined, nonetheless this might be handled in any of 2 ways - text saying "map of the Black Country. The exact region covered is not well defined", or two colours, for "usually agreed" and "agreed in some sources not by others".

FT2 ^{(Talk | email)} 09:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

A number of places and features in the Black Country are in Category:West Midlands articles missing geocoordinate data. If you can provide coordinates, please do so. Thank you. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 16:44, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

On OS Maps

To be added later: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_midlands/8212725.stm Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:47, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

The Black Country in Literature

Does anyone feel that a section with this name could usefully be started??

I am thinking in particular of the copious work of Francis Brett Young. Flying Stag (talk) 23:25, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Removed the part about the accent; horribly written

'The Black Country is also known for its distinctive dialect, which differs slightly in various parts of the region. For instance: "How are you?" in Black country dialect has two variations "ow am ya?" is from the Wolverhampton area and "Ahh bin ya?" in the rest of the Black Country. "Ah bin ya?" is a good example the Black Country Dialect is similar to the German language. "Ah bin ya?" Germany (phonetically) "Ah bist do?"

The common mistake is that the people from the Black Country are associated with Birmingham people, because of the misconception of their close proximity. This can be a great insult to most, as the city of Coventry is nearer to Birmingham in areas than the Black Country and the connection is never made between them.'

The section below on the dialect is much better. However, someone could reword a mention of the dialect in the introduction as for many, the first thing associated with the Black Country is the dialect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.150.204.82 (talk) 11:06, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

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Map, Languages and Capital

I'm from Walsall and i consider it to be a part of the Black Country, mainly because of it's leather production and the way people talk. Wolverhampton i also consider to be a part of the Black Country, including Dudley, Sandwell, West Bromwich, Northern Birmingham and everywhere between. I don't think there is actually a border or map which could explain where the boundary of the Black Country begins and ends. It's slightly different wherever you go mainly because of it's people and i think that's where the problem lies, people have settled with this and i know for a fact that 2 generations ago there was a neighborhood in southern cannock (bridgtown) which could partially be considered a part of the Black Country because of it's people. Defining where the Black Country is, is not easy like defining London or elsewhere, it's like saying, draw a diagram on this map showing where all of the Londoners live. We should dismiss trying to put a definate location on where the Black Country is, for the nearest answer, 'West Midlands' and 'Southern Staffordshire' would be appropiate but this still wouldn't include every part of it.

Someone mentioned that Heath Town was a part of the Black Country but Wolverhampton was not, or near enough this idea, well that i can say is practically impossible to say. Heath Town is maybe a mile away from Wolverhampton Town Centre and on one of the key roads towards it. Saying Wolverhampton was not part of the Black Country and Heath Town is, must surely be on thoughts. The 'Black Country Museum' i believe is based within Wolverhampton and much of the coal mining and furnaces are still visible here. Metal Factories cover large industrial estates which litter Wolverhampton too, showing a clear heritage.

It's my belief that the Black Country itself should be defined by it's people, not location. By doing so your forgetting MBC's and towns, your linking the Black Country to the workplaces and the people that worked within them (or their ancestors), that is how the area came of it's name.

AccuraUK 00:03, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The Black Country Museum is within a mile of Dudley Town Centre and is further away from Wolverhampton than Dudley itself.

I would also question the inclusion of blackcountrypodcasting. It's not a notable media outlet - I had lived in the Black Country for 18 years and as a youth would expected to have heard of such a thing but I never knew it existed?

For me, that paragraph is shameless advertising. Thoughts? Worley-d 19:37, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with much of what Worley-d says. Perhaps blackcountrypodcasting is advertising; however as there is already a link to the BBC Black Country web page and a paragraph and a link to the Express and Star, we can hardly remove just one of them. This advertising needs to be watched, and if they multiply, then culling will be needed.Pyrotec 20:16, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

While I know not a lot about Heath Town vs. Wolvo., I've long argued that Cannock (and some of its surrounding areas) should come under the Black Country label.

I think, what I'm saying in essence, is that I agree with AccuraUK, in that defining the Black Country's not as easy to do as defining (for example) London is.

7rin (talk) 00:26, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Removal of profiteering links and incorrectly stated quotes

I also agree that advertising should be removed as a whole but again do we remove just the links that are clearly making a profit i.e businesses such as the Express and Star and the BBC or should local community groups such as Black Country Gob www.blackcountrygob.com be removed?

There is a place for promotion of such groups that are infact promoting the region and not just out to make profit from. The Black Country region is full of people with memories and Black Country Gob is collecting those memories via it's members just as wikipedia is. There is no claim to be the only one however you will see that as an active forum and a great and popular genealogy section BCG has omething to offer. Surely for a place such as this it is paramount to get correct information and where best but from the mouths of real Black Country Folk!

I am the site admin of BCG and feel that asa community group we can assist the region and it's people and therefore request that we be added to the page with a link to our site. The link serves no seo benefits and so this is not a request for advertising purposes but does let the people interested know they have somewhere to go to meet others and also to research the region and gain true facts from the true people not just some university graduate who reckons they know all about the Black Country "because they read a book".

Anyone care to support this non profit community group? :) I can be emailed at Gobby@blackcountrygob.com should anyone wish to contact me. Sorry if I placed this comment incorrectly but i'm new to wiki. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.37.85.164 (talk) 19:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I would have to say the the Black Country Gob is a great resource for Black Country people. It is full of old information & articles as well comments etc from Black Country people that would make a great resource for material from people who want to learn more about the Black Country. I would definitely recommend a link from this page for those in search of more information. I am not associated in any way with the Black Country Gob and as a resident of the Black Country, I can recognise what a great resource it would be for those from the Black Country as well as the "outsiders". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thewetdogproject (talk • contribs) 16:43, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

"Thee, Thy and Thou are still in use"

I grew up in Kinswinford, and went to College in Stourbridge and I have NEVER heard "Thee, Thy or Thou". "You" is pronounced "Yaw" which I imagine could have been influenced by the sound of "thou" but in means "You" and is not modified in any way that can be compared to Thee/Thy/Thou. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.141.94 (talk) 22:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

How does the Black country differ from the West Midlands conurbation?

Please enlighten me, I'm confused. I assume there is some overlap between this article and West Midlands conurbation. Kaleeyed (talk) 13:59, 28 March 2012 (UTC)

The city of Birmingham itself, Solihull and Sutton Coldfield are part of the West Midlands conurbation but not part of the Black Country. Beyond that, it gets tricky, since there's no real agreement on the boundaries of the Black Country itself. Among the biggest questions is the status of Wolverhampton: much of this article seems to have been written with a sweeping mindset that no part of Wolverhampton qualifies at all, but not everyone would agree with that - even local residents.

For example: in the southeast corner of the area governed by Wolverhampton City Council is Bilston, which has a strong heritage of coal mining, steel making and so on, and which definitely has a Black Country character. Much of eastern Wolverhampton was similar. In the northwest corner is Tettenhall, which has a much more rural history. One thing that Wolverhampton certainly does share with places like Dudley is a dislike of being lumped in as "really part of Birmingham", and using the Black Country name is a handy way of showing that. I actually come from Wolverhampton, so it's not only "outsiders" who get confused! Loganberry (Talk) 02:23, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

During the critical Industrial Revolution, Wolverhampton was thought of as not only "the Capital of the Black Country" but also "The Capital of the Iron Trade in the Black Country" according to Samuel Griffiths in "History of the Iron Trade of Great Britain" (1872). Wolverhampton itself (excluding Bilston part) was heavily industrialised with coal mines, including some of the thick seam. As seen by a number of observers who went to the elevated position of Dudley Castle, the densest smoke in the Black Country during the Industrial Revolution was observed to lie over Wolverhampton, as the area between the town centre and Bilston was the 2-3 mile stretch with continuous coal mines and many iron and zinc works with their blast furnaces. Please refer to Walter White's book "All Around the Wrekin".

Furthermore, the quote by Samuel Sidney "Rides on Railways" taken from the Black Country Society, arguably purposely omits Wolverhampton because the Black Country Society has a Dudley-agenda and arguably an anti-Wolverhampton one. If you care to check the original quote by Sidney, Wolverhampton was included in his list of towns, and the Black Country Society omitted it from the quote, for reasons only known to them.

Also, Tettenhall was a separate village at the time the Black Country got its name (around 1830-40), separated by at least a mile of green fields from Wolverhampton.

(N Moss)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.232.224.48 (talk • contribs) 11:42, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Map, Languages and Capital (2)

There were previously two rather huge paragraphs which discussed the borders of Black country with different definitions. I am not from the area, but I identified three different definitions from the original text:

• The deep and shallow coal definition (wide definition)
• The cultural and industrial definition (wider definition)
• The shallow and outcropping coal definition (narrow definition)

Is this correct?

I have organized the border discussion into a seperate section. The two paragraphs are merged together and duplicate information is removed. There were no citations in the old text, and Ḯ've added citation needed everywhere to state this.

Since the old text was very poorly written and almost impossible to understand, the rewrite may not mirror the original intention of the authors. I welcome others to correct the text, at least it's now possible to read it.

Atlesn (talk) 17:29, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

N MOSS (ADDENDA) 3/4/16

In answering this question, there are several very important historic facts to consider, that even the Black Country Society, :with a clear Dudley bias, seem to ignore.

1) There is no evidence that the Black Country was actually solely defined by the existence of the thick coal seam (as per the Black Country Society), even if it was uniquely thick in parts. It had been mined for up to 500 years in the area before we know the term "Black Country" evolved. Furthermore, the bulk of teh thick seam actually went off to teh domestic market in Birmingham, as it was too crystalline in nature to use for smelting purposes in the iron works. The thick seam west of Dudley was more adaptable however. But the thin seams of coal were critical for the iron works.

2) The deeper coal field such as at pits at Jubilee, Hampstead, Sandwell Park, Baggeridge, certainly had nothing to do with defining the 'original Black Country'. These deeper operations merely represent a continuation of the mining industry around its geographical edge, but the Black Country was characterised by shallow pits that were quickly mined and abandoned.

3) The term 'Black Country' that we know evolved roughly around 1830-1840 actually coincided with the establishment of the Iron Industry during the peak Industrial Revolution period 1830-40. Although reliant on coal to fuel the blast furnaces, it was the workings of the Iron Industry that chiefly made this area what it is today. H.C Derby in 1851 highlighted that of all the English districts where coal and iron were produced and used, the Black Country was only the 3rd highest producer of coal but the top producer of Iron. The term 'Black Country' only emerged once the Iron Industry established itself on a large scale, with the blast furnaces and countless chimneys turning the ground and atmosphere black.

4) It is evident that it was never referred to as "The Black Country" due to coal-mining alone, or due to the effect of coal-mining alone. Only once the Iron Industry established itself, was the area so-called.

5) It might justifiably be argued that both the coal and iron industry defined the Black Country, but certainly not Coal in isolation.

The Black Country Borders.

N MOSS ADDENDA 3/4/16

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.232.224.48 (talk • contribs) 10:58, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

"Today, the Black Country Society definition (or the Dudley definition) is contradictory, trying to argue that it should be defined purely by the existence of the thick coal seam, irrespective of its depth. Though it also includes other districts because they contributed significantly through iron works etc.

I have already shown that the Black Country, when it actually existed, was thought to have been based primarily on the Iron Industry but working in conjunction with the Coal Industry. Which ever stance you take clearly fundamentally affects its borders.

It is rarely highlighted for example, that a man with local knowledge - Samuel Griffiths (Bilston-born to West Bromwich parents), in his 1872 book of the Iron Trade in the UK, highlighted that "Wolverhampton was the Capital of the Black Country" as well as "The Capital of the Iron Trade in The Black Country".

Another writer, Samuel Sidney, is misquoted in the main text, but he along with other mid-1800's writers William White and Elihu Burritt all considered Wolverhampton to be a key Black Country town. Some of these writers went to the elevated position of Dudley Castle, to observe the Black Country, and White for example noted that the "darkest area of smoke lay over Wolverhampton".

The Black Country Society, who restrict the Black Country to a relatively small geographical zone based on the thick coal seam, often highlight that the first written record of the term 'Black Country' was made by William Gresley in 1846, where he stated "the area commonly known as the Black Country" implying that the term was already then in use. But they tend to ignore the fact that he also stated in his same book, that the Black Country was 20 miles long, which would 'inevitably' thus include Wolverhampton at the northern end.

Furthermore, even if the Black Country Society "thick coal seam" definition is accepted, they wrongly exclude Wolverhampton. Some of the thick coal seam was mined at Wolverhampton coal mines such as Chillington Colliery, Monmore Green Colliery, Rough Hills Colliery, Parkfields Colliery, Ettingshall Colliery, Stow Heath Colliery, and Moorfields Colliery where the seam was noted to be 14 metres thick.

According to most 1800's writers (as opposed to late 1900's writers who are looking at the history of the area non-contemporaneously), the Black Country core area was Wolverhampton through to Bilston, Willenhall, Tipton, Wednesbury and just touching the north-east corner of West Bromwich. A second zone was around Brierley Hill.

END

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.232.224.48 (talk • contribs) 10:58, 4 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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I have changed this and updated the Arts Council ref to a pdf that includes the Designation. Tony Holkham (Talk) 13:06, 30 June 2016 (UTC)