Talk:Biswa Singha

Added about the origins of Biswa Singha

Added about the origins of Biswa Singha from: 1. Agrarian System of Medieval Assam by Jahnabi Gogoi 2. History of the Koch Kingdom, C. 1515-1615 by D. Nath

Ethnic identities

@Fylindfotberserk: Is it necessary to high light the original ethnicities here too much, the the very first sentence of the lede? Is this important in the English Wikipedia, for a wider audience that might not know what these actually mean? Chaipau (talk) 17:43, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

@Chaipau: Unnecessary in a biography article's lede. Better to have it in the ancestry section only. Napoleon article for example. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:55, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

@Fylindfotberserk: Thank you Chaipau (talk) 17:58, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

@Chaipau: Welcome bhai . - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:59, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Self published work by Nalini Ranjan Ray

The source https://archive.org/details/KochRajbanshiAndKamatapurTheTruth.Unveiled2007 is a self-published work and not WP:RS.

• It is written not by an expert but by an ex-Captain in the security forces.
• It is published to promote a particular narrative of the Koch Rajbanshi people.

Given the political conflicts based on ethnicity in the region, this cannot be considered a reliable source.

Chaipau (talk) 16:25, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

Legendary origin of Biswa Singha

@Homogenie: regarding your revert[1], could you please explain why this is relevant to the biography of Biswa Singha who lived in the early 16th century? This legend was narrated in the 16th/17th century Yogini Tantra as Shin (2021) mentions:

The most important aspect of the narrative was their assumed divine origin: Siva as father and a yogini as mother of the founder of the dynasty. The sixteenth-century Yoginitantra, albeit not a Koch chronicle, deserves detailed mention for its significance to an analysis of the Koch lineage narrative. The story establishing the connection between Siva and the mother of Visva is told in the form of conversation between the deity and his consort, Parvati Siva informs her that the mother of Visva was originally a yogini named Revati, who lived in the country called Komcana, adjacent to the yoni cave. Both charming and wise, versed in both the Vedas and âgamas, she engaged in love-play with Siva. But when a brahmin came to seeking alms, she ignored him, and the brahmin cursed her to become a mleccha. The child born of her love-play with Siva was Vinu Simha [Visva Siüha]

Though Shin says it is 16th century, the Yogini Tantra is generally considered to be either 16th or 17th century, and it is a late manuscript. Shin mentions this text is not a Koch chronicle, and the reasons for creating this narrative is not related to the interests of the Koch dynasty. In such a case, how is this relevant to the biography of Viswa Singha? It may be relevant in the Koch dynasty page, but definitely not here where we are detailing the biographical details of a person. There is no need to repeat the information here. The rule that applies here is WP:NOTEVERYTHING. Pinging Fylindfotberserk.

Chaipau (talk) 13:13, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Is this not the story used for the legitimation of Bisu to Biswa Singha?? So why should this be removed Homogenie (talk) 13:20, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

They are trying to legitimize his rule posthumously? Unless we have some definitive critical analysis of what the context was for this fantastic claim it has no relevance in Biswa Singha's biography. For all we know, it is grinding some other axe. Chaipau (talk) 13:31, 24 May 2022 (UTC) (edited) 13:35, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Mythical origins are too far fetched to be included in a biography of a historical king. At best in the ethnic, caste or dynasty articles as in the cases of Chitraguptavanshi Kayastha and Kshatriya articles. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 13:56, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, Fylindfotberserk, I shall remove it now. Chaipau (talk) 14:02, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

@Chaipau: Isnt it part of the legimitisation process??!! Also Sharma 2009 says the brahmins did it at the time of coronation of Bisu not after his death!! This should certainly be added below Homogenie (talk) 14:31, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Even if so it does not matter. Look at Fylindfotberserk's note above. Chaipau (talk) 15:02, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

This should be written below as the part of Sankritisation Homogenie (talk) 15:15, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

As already agreed upon, this will be part of the Koch dynasty, at most. Chaipau (talk) 15:19, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Certainly this should not be in the legendary section but below in the sankritisation process! Dont see how this falls under WP:NOTEVERYTHING Homogenie (talk) 15:28, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

@Chaipau: Have we reached an agreement! Homogenie (talk) 15:47, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Please do reply Homogenie (talk) 19:10, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

@Homogenie: We have reached consensus. The consensus is here. Pinging Fylindfotberserk Chaipau (talk) 20:54, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

I meant to add this part in the sankritisation process not in legendary origin just like it is here Dimasa Kingdom Homogenie (talk) 21:06, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

You may add it in the Koch dynasty page, just as in the Dimasa kingdom article; but this does not belong in the Biswa Singha page. Chaipau (talk) 02:12, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Why not, the story was to legitimise Bisu Homogenie (talk) 02:59, 25 May 2022 (UTC)