Talk:Bill Dickey

Albert Edwin Dickey

Hi, I just moved the Hall of Fame to the first graph, created sections and other edits. Noticed that story about Dickey's mentor, Ed Dickey, being in the dugout with him, Cobb biting his finger off, etc. Did this actually occur? I'm going to research it a bit and take it out if it's vandalism. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:48, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

No data on Google except as a copy of this page, likely vandalism, removed mention. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:58, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

French article

Hi I'm writing the french article about Bill Dickey. Could you please, give more informations about him ? Max Duval (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:22, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

RfC: 14 vs 7

There is a dispute with a user because of his winning career as a coach. His HoF plaque and MLB.com's record shows that he's a seven-time winner, and (It's different sports but if he's right,) my view is that Mikel Arteta is already a Premier League winning manager if his coaching record should be included, and I think this is wrong. 14 vs 7, which one is correct? 221.143.186.6 (talk) 08:25, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

The question at hand is: should Bill Dickey's world series wins include the 7 world series won while he was coach of the team (for a total of 14), or only the 7 world series that he won as a player?

(Edited to clarify the RFC as I found it initially confusing) Andromadist (talk)

• 14, as this seems to be what is done for notable coaches such as Frankie Crosetti and Jim Turner. Andromadist (talk) 22:45, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• I have another question. What is "notable" means? I mean, how can I divide who is notable and who is not? Is Mikel a notable person, or not? How can we judge that? I asked you a question based on official data, so I don't think I can agree if I don't understand exactly what notable means. Anyway, thank you for your opinion. 221.143.186.6 (talk) 23:21, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

• Wikipedia has criteria for notability under WP:N. Specifically, we would look at WP:NBIO and reference WP:BASIC and WP:SPORTSPERSON. Under that, we would be referred to WP:NSPORT, which would further refer us to WP:NBASE, where we would see criteria like Baseball figures are presumed notable if they... Are a member of a major Hall of Fame, such as the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum or the Japanese Baseball Hall of Fame., Have appeared in at least one game in any one of the following active major leagues: Major League Baseball, Nippon Professional Baseball, KBO League, or have participated in a major international competition (such as the World Baseball Classic, Baseball World Cup or Olympics) as a member of a national team. and Have served as a commissioner, president, general manager, owner, coach, or manager in one of the above-mentioned leagues. Does that help? Andromadist (talk) 00:25, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

• I'm not talking about WP:N, which is the standard for article, but I'm currently asking how many times this person has won the titles. You answered that it's possible to write 14 times because he is a "notable coach". If I asked about 'WP:N', this means that every sportsman article in Wikipedia should be recorded by adding up both his achievements as a coach and as a player. I don't think so.

For example, Ryan Giggs is very famous in English football, he is also a Manchester United legend, and the second-most played in EPL. He was obviously a notable player, and he also managed the team well in Wales. We can notice him both as a player and as a manager. However, he won the FA Cup four times as a player, and won one more FA Cup as an assistant coach. So, should we record his career as a five-time FA Cup winner? If not, what is the difference between Giggs and Dickey?

My question is just about this. 221.143.186.6 (talk) 01:39, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

• Sorry, your question appeared to be broadly about who was notable, so I answered that. As far as I'm aware, there is no policy on how to count wins as a coach versus as a player in the infobox so I can't give a black and white answer, so I've deferred to the style of other articles as per WP:OSE. If there's a convincing policy reason to not follow those articles, I'll revise my position. Andromadist (talk) 02:05, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

• Thank you for your kind reply even though my English is not good enough. Have a nice day. 221.143.186.6 (talk) 04:12, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

RFC Discussion

I know I talked too much, but I'd like to introduce a few more questions.

1. I took some examples as the assistant coach in football.(Giggs, Arteta) But according to the text, Dickey wasn't even bench coach. He was first base coach and catching instructor. So this makes another questions. For example, do many coaches such like, third base coach, bullpen coach, or baserunning instructor also become World Series winners?
2. It's a more advanced idea from above. Should we think that if someone contributes to the team, they deserve to win the title? Then, can I exaggerate a little more and consider the team's medical staff, or chefs as the winners? or is this just limited to coaching?
3. This is a question in case you say that this is limited to coaching. Son Heung-min, a Korean football player, has been learning football from his father Son Woong-jung since he was young. Son was coached by his father for more than four hours a day as a child. And his father is still training him severely. So I think we can call his father as his personal coach, but interestingly, he is not Tottenham's coach. It means, his position is just... "His father". in this case if Son Heung-min wins any competition, can we consider his father Son Woong-jung to have won the title?
4. To sum up, how can we define "Coaching methods that can be considered the winner of the World Series"? he didn't actually play after 1946, and that he was a first base coach, not a manager, not even a bench coach, but call him a winner, so this sounds to me like Dickey's coaching is so special that he deserves to win. But there's only a short sentence in the text that says he coached Yogi Berra. Then, if he didn't coach Yogi and the Yankees still won, then is Dickey considered the winner? If so, Unlike Son Woong-jung, Baserunning coach, medical staff, what makes Dickey's coaching and contribution special?

I don't want such an opinion like... "We've been writing articles like this.", I'm waiting for good opinions that we can understand each other. Thank you. 221.143.186.6 (talk) 00:49, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

We shouldn't decide whether coaches are considered world series winners - we should look for secondary sources that make those claims, and then we should evaluate those sources. So my understanding is that we can't answer "do many coaches such like third base coach, bullpen coach, or baserunning instructor also become World Series winners" directly as that would be too close to WP:OR, instead, the best we can say is "according to reliable sources, X player won Y number of world series". Or, for your question of how we define coaching methods that can be considered the winner of the World Series, my understanding is that we don't. We would look to reliable sources to decide that for us.

That being said, is your issue that we're including the wins at all, or just not making it clear when he was a coach and when he was as a player? Could we sidestep the entire RfC by saying 7x World Series champion (years here) and having another entry below it for 7x coach of World Series winning team (years here)? To me, that seems to be a fair assessment of the secondary sources and a compromise between yourself and the other editor. Andromadist (talk) 16:05, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

There is something I want to talk about first. I used to edit a lot in other language, but I left Wiki a long time ago. It's my first time discussing in the English version. Also, my discussion may not be neat. So, Thank you for organizing this discussion clearly.

I think both of them can be an issue. First of all, the player is directly involved in the victory and defeat of the game, and it is also the manager who makes the final decision on which player is included in the entry and which tactics to use. Therefore, it is easy to say that players and manager won the title.

But what about the coach? How should we accept that the coach trained the player? Is the absolute amount of time important for training, or the strength? If not, does the coach's reputation matter? Coach's speech, coach's personality? Or is the personality of a player important? I don't know which one is more important, but what's even more strange is, can we prove that "coach's training has increased a player's skills"?

In many sports, the best player is still young, and young players have the potential to grow more physically and mentally. Can we distinguish whether the player's record improvement is due to his natural improvement in muscle strength, reflexes, mental, etc. or because of his coach?

I also mentioned that the absolute amount of time above may not be important. Human beings are a creatures that can be different from before with one word from others. Wouldn't a word in an important match be more powerful than training? To sum up what I said, Yogi Berra said this; "It ain't over till it's over". If a player recalled this and used all his strength to turn the game around without giving up until the end, should we say Yogi Berra won another title? I think it is impossible. This means that someone can influence players and managers, but this cannot be his new title.

I can't accept that a coach can win a title. A coach is only a position. Of course, he is a professional, and he will be proud of his job and do his best. But can we prove how the player was influenced by him? Wouldn't that player have learned more from his teammate than from his coach? Wouldn't it be possible for the player's performance to decrease because of the coach? Let's think about the coach. Do part-time coaches and full-time coaches qualify differently? What do you think about this when the coach's training style can be different in his first year and 10th year? Can we prove that he has always been consistent in curriculum and intensity, even as team members change and coaches change and his contract changes over time? Can't a coach who teaches once a week be more influential than a coach who teaches five times a week? ...

These are questions that I wrote down really quickly, but... is there really no problem with saying 14 times? So I opened a discussion here. Thank you. 221.143.186.6 (talk) 18:42, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Hi friend, I'm sorry, but I think this is probably outside of my scope as a new editor to help explain. Talk pages are for discussing improvements to the article, not forums for general discussion of the article's subject, and I feel that this is too close to a discussion of the article's subject for my comfort. I'll defer to more senior editors for further comment and just leave my response to the RfC. Best, Andromadist (talk) 19:45, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

I may have used the wrong method. I don't know how English Wikipedia usually solves these problems. One user removed my contributions, so I left a message on the user discussion page, but he ignored it. So I opened a discussion to have a positive exchange of views with others. I'm sorry if I gave you a heavy answer. 221.143.186.6 (talk) 20:05, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

BASIS.

1. Baseball Reference says he won seven times. As a player(7) [1], As a manager(0) [2]
2. Hall of Fame [3] says he won seven times. Official Youtube also says seven times.(search 'Bill Dickey - Baseball Hall of Fame Biographies' on youtube)

So I asked why he should be 14 before, and his answer was because he won the ws as a coach. And I asked again, there are various coaches in baseball, so can they all be winners? I asked which employee is considered the winner, and his answer was that 'you are garbage'. So who is more groundless between me and the person who claims to be 13?

Don't only ask me for basis without asking others. In the version more than 10 years ago, it said 7, 8, and I think it was changed to 13 and 14 afterwards without basis. That's why I'm asking. Why does it have to be 13? 221.143.186.107 (talk) 19:44, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

He was on the Yankees roster for 13 WS championships. Coaches count. Who said "you are garbage"? Nobody did on this talk page. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:03, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

'garbage' was mentioned in other discussion i didn't say he said that here. Is it Wikipedia's official view that coaches are counted? I've rarely seen other coaches count except for team managers in other sports. 221.143.186.107 (talk) 22:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Since I have never edited a baseball article except for this, I will accept it if there was such a consensus among users. Because I didn't know that. But if not, it's a little hard to understand personally. 221.143.186.107 (talk) 22:23, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Hey... I've been waiting for your answer for a long time. So, what's the basis for "coaches count"? 221.143.186.107 (talk) 10:24, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

• Oh wow you have a sick obsession with this topic.-- Yankees10 00:20, 10 January 2023 (UTC)