Talk:Big Boss (Metal Gear)/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Big Boss (Metal Gear). Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Big Boss did not serve in the Korean war

There is no evidence that Big Boss fought in Korea. It's never mentioned in the game. I'm removing it unless you provide proof. Stop pulling crap out of your ass. I'm also changing the whole LRRP thing since Big Boss was still with the Fox unit during the vietnam war. He was not yet a mercenary. Thank you.

SAS

When did Big Boss serve in the SAS? Metal gear ninty 09:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

OMG, Spoilers!

{{spoiler}}

Folks, if you type Naked Snake in the search it goes to Big Boss page. THIS IS A SPOILER!

We're NOT suposed to know his true identity before the end of the game. And that picture too, please!

I sugest creating another article to Naked Snake with his picture and all that. And link to this one at the end. I've changed his pic to the old one, so it don't spoil who comes around it.

And about the names, just keep it as unknown, since there's no way to know his real name.

I think anybody who wouldn't be able to figure out that Naked Snake is Big Boss wouldn't take any interest in who Big Boss is, nor would finding out the connection be of any interest.

That image came from the official MGS3 website, it's the picture they provide of Naked Snake, eyepatch and all. I'm fine with the image replacement, though, I'd been wanting to get a bio-drawing of him on here. --Asriel 06:36, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I completely agree of that last image being Naked Snake, but not being Big Boss. Once you say they are the same person, it's a game spoiler. First of all, when Kojima released trailers about the game, it was not clear he was Big Boss, it was just an assumption. And in the game you only know he's Big Boss at the end of the game. I guess we could make two different pages, one to each person. And put the same profile, alerting Spoilers at the beginning. But when you enter the page, the image may spoil anyone. I don't know how to split Naked Snake from Big Boss, tho. I'm a newbah here. Thanks for the understanding of my first post. It's nice to have people who believe in this place and want to make it better.

If you guys feel that way about the Naked Snake/Big Boss article, then what about the Gray Fox one (which reveals that the Cyborg Ninja is Gray Fox)? Should there be a seperate article for the Cyborg Ninja or is Gray Fox not enough of a major character to warrant one?

Well, just to state, I've created a separate page to Naked Snake now. The pages are pretty identical, except for the picture and the first description, ok? So if you're gonna update one, update the other too. Now, this Gray Fox thing I just don't get. Could you explain it again, plz? -Imperator 21:22, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

My question is about the following article: Gray Fox (Metal Gear) and whether there should be seperate articles for the Gray Fox and Cyborg Ninja identities or simply keep them together. -Jonny2x4 02:27, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There are no spoilers in pictures, are there? So I think it shouldn't. Anyway, Naked Snake page was edited. It now shows only a brief message and refer to Big Boss page then. I think it's better this way -Imperator 18:57, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Naked Snake looks identical to Solid Snake...the game's set in the 60's...we know that Big Boss was a soldier in the 60's....and was used to create Solid Snake...don't you think it was intentionally obvious? I mean without knowing the cloning part, and considering the time-setting, you'd only assume they had to be related in some way to look that similar. I don't think it was ever meant to be a secret that Naked Snake was Big Boss. I pretty much considered myself as Big Boss all the way through the game...I was just waiting till the end to prove it.

Um...here's what I don't get. This is an encyclopedia. If people didn't want to risk seeing spoilers about characters, then they shouldn't be looking up encylopedic documents about them. Since when is putting information about the character inappropriate for wikipedia? Also, it was common knowledge who Naked Snake was before the game was even released. Anyone who doesn't know either doesn't care or is in dire need of being clued in on the matter anyway.

Not everybody has a good enough knowledge of MGS to predict that Naked Snake is Big Boss by just merely glancing at when the story was set, therefore, I think it was a good move to seperate the two articles.Metal gear ninty 09:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Notice about Changing Character's Listed Name

If you feel compelled to change Big Boss's listed name from Unknown to John, it will just be changed back to Unknown. There is absolutely no way to confirm what his name is. All we have is opinions and speculation. This is an encyclopedia that must be trusted to contain only confirmed facts; listing his name as "John" asserts it as factual, and is thereby vandalism in my book.

If you have your own opinion about what the character's real name is (and I'm sure you do), you may discuss it here. --Asriel86 21:56, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

Big Boss' Name

Big Boss' name is jack he says john to ocelot because he knows ocelot is a shifty one. posted by charles mcrank

I personally believe that his name really is John/Jack, and he just uses the term John Doe because of that. This is based solely on Raiden's name being Jack, presuming Solidus named him after Big Boss. It wouldn't make sense for him to name Raiden after a pseudonym of Big Boss. Naked Snake 23:00, 2 Dec 2004

You aren't alone, but his name has not been confirmed via any means (that includes the leaked document, by which most rumors are confirmed/denied). The Konami website lists that his nickname is Jack, so it would be acceptible that Solidus had named Raiden (if he did at all) after BB's well-known nickname.

"John Doe" is a generic name in American culture (not sure where you're coming from), so telling someone that your name is John Doe (or ____ Doe, really) is like saying "Screw you, no names!". I think people are just looking too far into it, Kojima doesn't make that big of a deal out of names. We didn't find out Solid Snake's first name until his third game.

Asriel86 07:11, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

The leaked document says "his real name is Jack". Read into it as you will, but I personally believe his name really is John/Jack, and he just uses John Doe as his noms de guerre since his name is already John.

Naked Snake 1:02, 3 Dec 2004

I heard that his name was "Jack Miles". From the leaked document, perhaps?

No. Stop changing the article to support your crackpipe theories or personal beliefs about Big Boss' real name. I'm sick of it. Take your opinions to a forum, stop messing with something that would otherwise be considered factual. If you want to change something about his name, propose the amendment on this page and wait for rebuttal.

Asriel86 01:32, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)

Easy there. Everyone calm down, don't need an edit war. Since everyone is so touchy on this, please cite sources before proposing changes? Alright? --Paul Soth 02:52, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The problem is that anon contributers fly in and make edits just to rustle up trouble. Video-game articles like this are often fodder for vandalism because it's the first thing that sort of person will search for when they discover Wikipedia. It's more like a revert war. Asriel86 03:53, Dec 24, 2004 (UTC)

There is lies the catch of the joke; his name IS John; but it IS a plain name. (keep in mind, Metal Gear Solid Spoilers, etc... and so on, follow.) The joke lies in much the same as Ivan (Russian for John; but also slang for Russian (eg. much the same Yank, is to an American.).) The point is that Hideo is just messing with peoples heads, in order to create doubt as to what his real name is. 'Never doubt yourself, let it make you stronger; learn something from it.' ~ Solid Snake. The point here-in is that in MGS2, we are given the meme of what a name really is (nothing more then whatever the heck you chose to make it). And that's the point; it is known, but at the same time, people don't accept what is right in front of them. we see only what we want. In MGS3 we are lead to believe that his name is Jack, or perhaps not (the joke of John Doe, is great. It IS his name, he's not lying (this is to establish that he does not lie.) He can't, even if he has to lie to himself, he won't; he'll believe the lie (as he told Eva.) And that's just it, the truth is in between the lies; His name IS John; and Hideo does not want us to think that it is; BUT in the same respect, he wants us to NOT think that it is. In other words, Hideo is really messing with people's minds over this; and I'm pretty damn sure laughing about it. ~ John

....yeeeah, I couldn't read most of that.

Anyway, no matter what you think, there's an equal number of people who think the opposite. Considering that Snake told Para-Medic that his name was John Doe, and considering the smirk he makes after telling Ocelot that his name's "John", everything you "know" is all speculative.

The only thing to do is to cite that there is a debate about his name. If there was any question to that fact, this Talk page should be enough (not to mention all the forums out there). Nobody knows for certain what the character's intended name is, so we cannot list speculation in the encyclopedia as fact.

I consider any edit of this article to change his name to John as vandalism, until we have some solid evidence (which I predict we never shall).

--Asriel86 21:37, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

http://www.blog.konami.jp/gs/img/the_report/the_report_008.mp3 ^All the proof you need. Audio evidence of Hideo Kojima HIMSELF saying that either John or Jack can be used. Meaning both are his names, which would mean he was born as John and the nickname "Jack" is used very often.

Metal Gear 1's final battle

"After Big Boss activated the base's self-destruct countdown, the two of them engaged in one-on-one combat, with Big Boss fighting using the same Patriot machine gun he had received from The Boss in their own final confrontation decades earlier."

This sounds to me a lot like fanon; even though it seems like what Kojima would do, there is absolutely no way to confirm what weapon Unknown uses, other than a machine gun. And don't talk about the infinite ammo, either--Machine Gun Kid, the Shotgunner, "Arnold", and Coward Duck all have infinite ammo, because of the gameplay mechanics.

I took care of it. Besides, Big Boss left the Patriot on Boss' grave. --Asriel 13:58, Apr 15, 2005 (UTC)

Which was pretty irresponsible when you think about it... (Ulicus 16:05, 18 December 2005 (UTC))

Why? I don't see ANYTHING wrong with putting a fully functional, modded, assault carbine with infinite ammo on a military grave. :P 83.227.160.135 10:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Hahahaha.....LOL..Still laughing. He should have buried it. -- Psi edit 19:12, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Newsflash

Is Big Boss back? --Paul Soth 04:13, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Doubt it! He's naked and looks rather malnourished. The image is quite similar to one in the Art of MGS book which had Big Boss' corpse in a tube with scientist around it. Still, they did revive Liquid Snake as a right arm. Jonny2x4 05:10, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

He does look a little dead, yet people in metal gear dont have a tendency to let that stop them! Liquid was not revied, his existence is made possible through his nanomachines and revolver ocelots connection to the spirt world (the sorrow). The Pain 11:53, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, I always thought that we'd have yet another struggle of Big Boss' remains. Revolver Ocelot runs the Patriots. Connection to the spirit world? We've not seen any proof of that in any of the games save that his father is the Sorrow. The thing I'm curious about is the shrouded figure on the far right and why they decided to bring Meryl back for another tour of duty. [E]psilon 13:48, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

The figure at the right appears to be Naomi Hunter, though it could also be fotune? As for ocelot, assuming we all trust the information on this site, it is stated as fact that the sorrow and the boss are his parents! This is also hinted at the end of the game and there is an unmistakable resemblence between the characters. The Pain 14:14, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

The woman is Naomi. All the characters' identities were confirmed over two months ago, in the May 20 issue of Weekly Famitsu (a Japanese game magazine). And the thing about Ocelot being The Boss' and The Sorrow's son is also true; Kojima all but said it in the February issue of EGM (he said that "their child" is in MGS3, while making "revolver twirling" motions with his hands). --DoubleCross 23:25, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

I deleted this sentence: "An illustration of what appears to be Big Boss(previously seen in the book, Art of Metal Gear Solid) can be seen on a promotional artwork for the upcoming game. Big Boss's role in the game is currently unknown, as not much information has been revealed. "Why? because at the TGS05 it was revealed that the old man in the promotional poster of MGS4:GOTP was actually Solid Snake.

Uh, hello? You do know that the text was refering to the naked old man between Otacon and Naomi, not the face atop the flyer. Get your facts straight next time. Editing it back. Jonny2x4 19:37, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

The figure is big boss I looked closly and saw an eyepatch.Who else other than snake has an eyepatch? it proves it big boss is revied and is either with the patriots or with snake. (User: Benjida October 17,2005 8:27)

It doesn't prove anything. It's a promotional image and until it is confirmed to be actual proof of his existence; it is probably nothing more than a symbol of how he still affects the world today. TotalTommyTerror 18:20, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Prehaps its Solidus, that is unlikely though as he dead at the end of mgs2. user: The Bread 1:52pm 23 janurary 2006

who cares if solidus is dead that hasnt stoppped anyone before as stated above and one more thing metal gears suck so why are there designed to scare people solid destroyed rex and raiden destroyed like 20 rays and now there a bunch of minis were suppposed to be scared ?

Didn't Solidus have the opposite eye hurt? So that rules him out. And it can't be Solid because, well, we know what he looks like in this game, and that aint it. So yea, that's Big Boss. It could just be his remains tho. One slice of concept art of him shriveled and naked doesnt mean he's alive. Those could just be the "remains of Big Boss" that were sought after in MGS. I mean, if he were alive, doncha think he'd ask for some clothes? Or at leasta hospital gown or something.

Can his boys swim?

I was just correcting some errors in the article and saw that it said Big Boss is sterile. Does anyone have a source for this? It seems like it would be true, but I can't find mention of it in any of the game scripts or manuals.

For some reason I remember there being a discussion about it, having to deal with radiation or something, but that also sounds like The Boss's backstory. Someone grab a script and look it up I say. It might be fanon, as well, based on the fact that Solid/Liquid/Solidus are sterile, though one could argue that's because they're clones or something. I dunno. The Timeturner 02:59, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Solidus makes a mention in Metal Gear Solid 2 to Raiden that all of the offspring of the Les'Enfantes project were genetically engineered to be sterile. Of Course this wouldn't include Big Boss.

However, I think Big Boss' (alleged) sterility may be speculation based on his proximity to the Bikini Atoll tests. But in canon it is never officially mentioned. TotalTommyTerror 18:18, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

OK, I'll delete the sentence about his sterility until and unless it's confirmed. I tend to think along the same lines as Timeturner in that someone probably mixed him up with The Boss.

It's mentioned in MGS3 that Naked Snake's proximity to the nuclear warhead launched by Colonel Volgin is what makes him sterile. I think it's mentioned by Para-Medic. It's canon.

The Boss states that Naked Snake was involved in testing on Bikini Atoll, which is what made him sterile.

Not true, although many people assume it to be. It's true that Naked Snake did take part in the testing on Bikini Atoll, but many people miss the radio conversation between Para-Medic and Snake on that subject. He mentions that he did take part in testing in Bikini Atoll, and that many of the test subjects had side-effects of it. Para-Medic asks Snake if he had any side-effects, and Snake replies that he was lucky and didn't.

I also believe that on one of Hideo Kojima's notes, its stated that Snake became sterile when he was caught in the Nuclear Explosion from Volgin in the Virtious Mission.

Solidus... exact duplicate?

I've changed all references to Solidus being an *exact* duplicate of Big Boss since this is an assumption - he was said to be a perfectly balanced "masterpiece" between dominant and recessive, not an exact duplicate of Big Boss. Now, in actual fact he may well be - but I find this to be highly unlikely. After all, how could he be considered anyone's "masterpiece" if he had no genetic tampering? Similarly, it's unlikely that Big Boss, as a naturally born human being, was *exactly* inbetween Solid and Liquid in the same way that Solidus was said to be - or at least as I recall him to be(Ulicus 04:12, 8 December 2005 (UTC))

Yea, they never mention or show how Solidus was when he looked younger. He may have looked exactly like Big Boss for all we know, but I have never seen a picture or any information on that subject.

Dominant and recessive

It seems that someone has repeatedly changed this article to say that Solid Snake possesses the dominant genes and Liquid possesses the recessive ones. Of course, the opposite is true. Listen to what Ocelot says after the credits; he makes it abundantly clear that Snake has the recessives and Liquid has the dominants.

Now, I've heard some people contend this, saying "Ocelot says Liquid's superior, not that he has dominant genes." But that reasoning doesn't hold any water.

Liquid: "You're fine. You got all the old man's dominant genes. I got all the flawed, recessive genes."

Liquid asserts two things during his speech on top of REX:

1. That Snake has the dominant genes and Liquid has the recessive ones.

2. That because dominant genes are better, Snake is superior and Liquid is inferior.

Then, after the credits, Ocelot says, "The inferior one was the winner after all. That's right. Until the very end, Liquid thought he was the inferior one."

Therefore, one of Liquid's statements must be wrong. But which one? Either he is ignorant of the science, and recessive genes are really superior to dominant ones, or he is ignorant of the history, and Snake really got the recessive genes instead of the dominant ones.

With his 180 I.Q., it is extremely unlikely that Liquid would make a stupid scientific error. Naomi, a geneticist herself, doesn't correct him and say that recessive genes are superior. Neither does Nastasha's book, doubtlessly fact-checked before publication. Neither does Otacon, not a geneticist by trade, but an all-around smart guy. No one in the series ever contends the fact that dominant genes are superior.

The conclusion that we're meant to draw is that Snake has the recessive, inferior genes. It fits in with one of the game's major themes, that a person's fate isn't ruled by their genetics. I think it's safe to say that the majority of people who've played MGS came to the same conclusion.

Of course, real life genetics isn't as simple as dominant and recessive, good and bad. But we're talking about the fictionalized world of Metal Gear, where a guy can replace his severed arm with someone else's and not worry about host rejection. Then get possessed by the arm's original, dead owner. Then dive underwater with a huge walking tank. In Metal Gear, dominant genes are the best, Liquid has them, and Snake doesn't.

Read the discussion on the Solid Snake page.

That Snake has the "inferior" genes is not disputed and yes, the first time I played MGS, I came to the same conclusion of "Snake has the recessive genes". But thinking about it - and in light of Snake Eater, it makes very little sense that Big Boss should be so similar to the son that is carrying the genes that he does not (for the most part) express.

Similarly, bringing Liquid's high IQ into the discussion means nothing - IQ is not a measure of one's knowledge on a subject. Especially when Liquid says: "One a genetic level we are identical" before moments later telling us that he and Snake have different genes entirely... of course, as you say, this *is* the world of Metal Gear, heh heh.

I mean, thinking about it, Snake and Liquid should not even look alike - genes dicate appearance as well. Unless Liquid was generalising, and all he meant was "I got all the flawed recessive *soldier* genes" (which makes little sense, since they had not been identified at that time... but whatever)

As for Liquid making a "stupid scientific error", let's be fair - if you have your father telling you that you have the "flawed" recessive genes - and then finally meet your *legendary* twin brother, who was the one who beat the "Greatest Warrior of the 20th Century" and even SOUNDS like Big Boss - you're bound to jump to the conclusion that he's the "better clone".

When you say "in 'Metal Gear', dominant genes are the best", what you should really be saying is that "in 'Metal Gear' Big Boss' dominant genes are *supposedly* the best."

Since Big Boss would express his dominant genes and was the best solider around, one would tend to assume this was the case. In my view (and therefore, it's not in any of the articles), this supposition is wrong - and the Patriots (assumedly the people behind the project) and those who had been a part of the Patriots operations (Solidus, Ocelot) are the only people who know it.

Using Liquid's assertations cannot prove your point, since Liquid was *wrong*. Liquid says that he recieved the "flawed recessive genes" - and that is his basis for believing that he is inferior. In truth he is superior - and that can come about in *two* ways:

By replacing "flawed" with "superior", or "recessive" with "dominant".

As such, until it is explicitly stated - we should not attribute the recessive or dominant genes to either twin, simply mention that they were split into recessive and dominant - and that Solid was the "inferior", whilst Liquid was the "superior".

Side-note: I'm not the one who frequently changed this article...

(Ulicus 16:37, 18 December 2005 (UTC))

"But thinking about it - and in light of Snake Eater, it makes very little sense that Big Boss should be so similar to the son that is carrying the genes that he does not (for the most part) express."-Ulicus; Actually, and im pretty sure that i am right about this, but in MGS it says that Solid and Liquid Snake are identical twins.--66.177.117.109 06:22, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

what you all have to think about is that all this cloning technology is all nazi technology so off course the better clone will have the blonde hair and blue eyes i'e liquid and just because he doesnt look like his father doesnt meen hes not superior infact maybe solids like liness to big boss is what makes him the inferior clone solid is more human as liquid is anything but hes more focused and without emotions making him superior to any human

well there's no way to know which of Big Boss' genes expressed themselves and to what extent, really. Also, nether Liquid or Solid exactly resembled him. Facial structure yes. Solid got the voice and Liquid got the build (both Liquid and Naked Snake are a little "bigger" than Solid Snake). As for hair, Solid chooses to dye and cut his hair that way. We know from the briefing scene in MGS that his natural hair is exactly like liquids, and that he altered it so as to not go into Shadow Moses looking exactly like the leader of the terrorists. Onikage725 03:50, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Has it occured to one of you that the reference to the "inferior one won after all" statement could be refering to something else.After reading all of your evidence its starting to confuse me which one is which.So I have a new theory.Solidus is supposed to have the genes of Solid AND Liquid right.That would mean HE is the dominant.Solidus is Jim Houseman(I think thats his last name) who called the air strike on Shadow Moses.The air stike got called off meaning Solid Snake who is inferior to Solidus "won" in a way.I'm just putting new theories out there.Its highly likely we are ALL wrong and Ocelot was refering to someone or something else that will be unshrouded in MGS4.And if Liquid DID have the dominant genes,who cares?Snake Won!:)

Snaks never dyes his hair thats some rumor that got started from the lighting in the breifing scene video and from old info of SoL were Snake was going to dye his hair blonde as Pliskin. I dont recall when but at some point Kojima confirmed thats Snakes natural hair color. Also Solidus is NOT Jim Housemen, hes the president from MGS (uence the Mr. president line from Ocelot)

Big Boss' role in WWII

Just curious as to where the information on Big Boss' role in WWII came from - because, given that The Boss dismisses him as a "child" at the end of the Virtuous Mission, and states later that she "raised" him, while Big Boss himself describes her as a "mother", I had him a pegged as being a bit younger than that... late twenties to early thirties: thirty-one at the most. That would mean that he was serving in the military when he was about 11/12...

If it's from an old Metal Gear/MG: Solid Snake manual - I don't really think it should be included, since there have been changes to the characters since then. I mean, hell, SE even retconned information from SoL - because there is no way that Naked Snake was in his late fifties by 1972. He'd be older than The Boss - and she was 44 at most.

Ah well, it's not a huge concern - I'm just interested tis all.

(Ulicus 16:58, 18 December 2005 (UTC))

Actually, the information comes from the "Official MGS Mission Handbook" (not the MSX manuals) and I'm pretty certain that the information there is non-canonical (half of that book, including Octopus' entire bio was fanfic). It states that Big Boss' mistreatment when coming home after WWII was the source of his stunted patriotism, but this is clearly not the case in MGS3 If anyone has no objection, I'm removing it. Jonny2x4 01:51, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Solidus is not from a second batch

There is no evidence whatsoever that Solidus came from a second batch. It is never stated in MGS2. I'm removing it. If you have proof. Please feel free to state it. Thank you.

He may not be from a second batch, but he is not from the first one. Two out of the eight embryos of the first batch became Liquid and Solid, the rest were killed in order to make Liquid and Solid stronger. 83.227.160.135 10:53, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Solidus is definitely not from the same batch as Solid and Liquid. In MGS 2 President Jhonson says he preceeds Solid and Liquid, which im sure means he came from the same project but not the same batch as Solid and Liquid.

Big Boss' Dream

I've read the bio of Big Boss on here, and it doesn't talk about another likely reason behind Big Boss' actions in the original games.

It's true that when we are pulled into Metal Gear, we are believed that Big Boss is a traitor to his country/unit, and wants to turn the world into chaos. But after playing through Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater, I honestly do not believe that is the case.

In the end of Snake Eater, Big Boss learns that her country used her as a puppet and take the blame on the actions of Volgin by making her look like she defected to Russia, all to save America's image, and to obtain an extremely large sum of money, ala, The Philosopher's Legacy. By the end of the game, Big Boss is disgusted by the government he once put his life on the line for. He hated them for what they did to The Boss, his mother figure, and many other soldiers who were killed and de-honored in the minds of those they fought for to cover up the governments actions.

Although, when we're talking about the government, we're talking about The Philsophers, or rather, The Patriots. Although few have heard about them, they pretty much ARE America. They are the ones responsible for the decisions, decisions such as sacrafice a soldiers honor and lives to cover their own mess up. So in turn, Big Boss would only hate The Patriots.

So Big Boss over the years continues to fight in missions, probably sticking to FOXHOUND in honor of his former commander and friend, Major Zero. This lasted for several years, while playing the part of commander and legendary hero, he secretly hid his ideas from The Patriots (who no doubt to Big Boss knew controlled FOXHOUND's strings like puppets).

After collecting a large sum of money, and remembering Granin's blueprints on the "Metal Gear" models, he creates his own, remembering the power and terror it put into The then-named Philsopher's balance. He colelcted solders and housed them in his fortress he built from his savings, Outer Heaven, where he readied them for battle against The Patriots, using the soldiers as how they were emant to be. As Warriors.

Ofcourse, The Patriots grew aware of this and, since they control FOXHOUND, ordered Big Boss (unknown to his rebellion) to send in an agent to investigate. Big Boss not wanting to cause suspition to him, but also not wanting his plans to be ended before he could go through with them, sent in rookie agent Solid Snake.

Solid Snake, unexpectedly, got through all of Big Boss's diversions and reached him. Big Boss, although not wanting to kill him, had no other choice if he was to carry out his dream of taking back a soldier's freedom.

In the end, Big Boss is killed by a Patriot puppet. He didn't want to cause an "Endless war of death", he just wanted to destroy The Patriots and free soldiers. In the publics eyes (which is also controlled by The Patriots) Big Boss was a traitor to his country (as they made The Boss out to be).

Hideo Kojima is, technically, The Patriots as he controls what we believe and controls us to do soemthing for we have no other way around the situation. He made us believe Big Boss was evil until we found out the truth. Big Boss will always be a hero who died fighting for what he believed in: Freedom.

That is why Solidus Snake's version of "Big Boss' dream" is to FREE America from The Patriots. Liquid Snake based Big Boss' dream off of what The Patriots claimed it was (endless war and mayham)

The theme of the Snakes in the game is that they are rebelous to The Patriots, upsetting the balance they had created (like the Snake in the Garden of Eden. Why would the original be any different and just turn flat out evil and a war-hungry monster?

Big Boss fought for freedom, and ultimately, was killed by the ones he tried to fight, making it a constant theme in MGS that you cannot destroy The Patriots.

The quote from Gray Fox is obvisouly words of wisdom he got from his foster father, Big Boss. "We're not tools of the government or anyone else. Fighting was the only thing I was good at, but at least I always fought for what I believed in."

Big Boss rebeled for a soldier's freedom. And although he was raised to fight, he fought for what he believed in: Freedom.

Don't forget he sent in Fox before Snake. While what you're saying makes sense, it never sat well with me that he seemingly fed his two sons (adoptive and biological) to the wolves. Unless of course it was a trial by fire for them, or if he hoped they would be captured and he could sway them...I dunno. I also never got why he was so surprised that Snake made it through, considering that Snake is a clone of himself, and he pulled through some crazy stuff and beat his own mentor back in his day.

Not only did he feed them to the wolves, he was the wolf waiting to gobble them up. At the end of Metal Gear he had absolutely nothing to gain by killing Snake; Outer Heaven's best soldiers were dead and Metal Gear was destroyed. But Big Boss is pissed and wants to make Snake pay for ruining everything, so he grabs a gun and attacks. Likewise, there was very little reason to kill Snake in MG2, since once again BB's forces and Metal Gear were annihilated. Big Boss did want the Oilix data that Snake had, but he didn't need to gun down his unarmed son to get it. Even Liquid and Solidus didn't stoop that low, they gave Snake and Raiden fair (somewhat) fights.

And then there's Big Boss's abduction and murder of scores of civilians, intent to use nuclear weapons to kill millions, training and indoctrination of war orphans as his soldiers, verbal abuse of Liquid as a child, and selling out of Snake and Fox while they were under his command. The Patriots didn't just say that Big Boss wanted endless war and mayhem, he flat-out tells Snake that himself, and his actions back it up. There's a lot of fan sympathy for Big Boss since Snake Eater came out, but just because he was an alright guy in his youth doesn't change the fact he became an absolute monster.

Well you have to look at it from Big Boss' point of view. The country he loved and fought for basically screwed him over. He didnt want to be used just like The Boss. Then thats when he made FOXHOUND and started building Outer Heaven. From his point of view, he was doing the world a favor from the rule of the governments, which in the end, were ruled by the Philosophers. Although I do have to admit, the fact that he wanted to do that and throw the world into chaos and mayhem doesnt make it right to kill millions of people. He wanted a soldiers world, and in the process would have to kill probably millions of people. Or millions of people would die from the chaotic world.

Deleting/Changing Some Parts

I'm deleting the following part:

In 2003 Konami supplied to the press some MGS3 dog tags with: J.T.Milles, 1964 F.O.X on them. They were only featured in one magazine, the UK multi-format magazine CVG (Now Internet Only) Still unconfirmed to this day is Jacks full name Jack.T.Milles?

This was a prank, committed by someone who had gone to E3. He forged the pictures of the dogtags and gave them to the UK magazine. Last year, the committer of the prank (can't remember who he was, just know that he ran a terrible MGS site) confirmed it was his doing and was a prank.

I'm also changing the following part:

A third offspring was also created from the same batch. Solidus Snake, being a carefully crafted balance between dominant and recessive genes, was presumably intended to be the pinnacle of the Les Enfants Terribles Project. Despite what fans think, there is no evidence that Solidus came from a different batch.

Liquid says six clones were aborted, leaving only he and Solid, and this is never contradicted. Combined with the fact that President Johnson explicitly states Solidus came after Solid and Liquid, it can easily be seen he came from another batch.

Exact replica of Big Boss?

Be mindful that it is certainly feasible that Solidus, through The Les Enfants Project, had recessive and dominant genes balanced within him more perfectly than nature had actually done within the original, namely Big Boss. That would place Solidus on the same level as the other two Snakes, in the sense that he is indeed a clone, but one in which recessive and dominant genes have purposefully been tampered with making for subtle differences between the clones and the original lifeform. Something which is seen quite prominently in the case of both Solid and Liquid Snake.

But because there is no substantial proof either way I'd suggest any statements along the lines of 'exact replica' or 'perfect copy' be permanently removed from the article's relevant sections. There's less chance of the article including any incorrect information this way. 80.201.169.202 15:08, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you keep in mind the explanation Kojima gives in MGSnaked, none of the three Snakes (Solid, Liquid and Solidus) are really better or worse from each other. They were all born from the same vintage 70's cloning technology and thus, they weren't actually capable of altering a gene's phenotypes back then. I always theorized The Patriots lied to Solidus, Liquid and Ocelot on who's superior, when they're really all the same (just like how they lied to Ocelot about the S3 Plan being a "Solid Snake Simulation"). Of course, this is just my theory. Jonny2x4 06:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Alledged hypocrisy of Big Boss?

" However, Big Boss can also be viewed as a hypocrite, since his very objective with establishing Outer Heaven was violated by using Solid Snake as an expendable chess piece in the Zanzibar Land Incident. "

When I take a look at the canonical context of the Outer Heaven crisis, I have to say that this comment strikes me as being subjective in nature when compared to any of the other current content of the article's "Motives" section. Solid Snake's infiltration of Outer Heaven was, for all intended purposes, an operation which was instigated by the government and thus by The Patriots, with Big Boss being the obvious and unavoidable relaystation of these orders in officially being the FOXHOUND commander at that time. In the end, the decision wasn't his, the plan wasn't of his making either, nor was he the "player" who was ultimately moving this "expendable chess piece". Also, in being FOXHOUND's commander and thus someone officially partaking in the infiltration of Outer Heaven in the capacity of Solid Snake's commanding officer, it could be argued through this logic that Big Boss too was nothing but such a chess piece in the hands of The Patriots, at least within the lines of the operation. Lastly, according to the canonical storyline, Big Boss never expected the rookie Solid Snake to be a genuine threat to Outer Heaven as is evidenced by the fact that he does not begin to attempt to hinder Snake's efforts until well into the later stages of the operation.

The bottom line is that this issue seems far too debatable to be permanently added to the article's content in my opinion. In contrast to the 'may even elevate Big Boss to the level of anti-hero' part, which rather is an objective conclusion based upon the canonical events of Metal Gear Solid 3, in which Kojima himself clearly labored to give Big Boss a more human dimension without therefore excusing the character's future actions at the same time.

Unless the original author of the 'hypocrisy' statement can provide very clear reasons as to why it shouldn't be considered subjective even in the light of the issues raised above, I propose that we remove it permanently. 217.136.186.199 07:06, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

--I wrote the comment, but if you feel that strongly about it, you can keep it off.

MPO

Please add pictures from Metal Gear Portable Ops. If you could add a picture of Big Boss in his new suit from Portable Ops to the Big Boss page and to the Portable Ops page. - anonymous - 12:57, 27 May 2006

Done (The Bread 11:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC))

Artwork

I've noticed this is getting edit-reverted a bit by people, so we need to come to a consensus here about it. Essentially, we can either use the young one or old one. In my opinion, the old one is better, for the following reasons:
1) Naked Snake becomes Big Boss after Snake Eater - during Snake Eater he is not Big Boss. From this viewpoint using the young image is wrong.
2) The old one is the official artwork of Big Boss which has been around for years and is the one people most associate with Big Boss.
3) The young one looks too much like Solid Snake and could lead to people getting confused.

Obviously my opinion isn't law and this is open to discussion. -- Steel 14:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and 4) The whole spoiler thing that was discussed above. -- Steel 14:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Old one - For the reasons stated above. I've already made my argument to the noobs and I don't feel like rewriting them. Jonny2x4 23:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Old one aswell, all the characters have the "oldest" version of them as their image, take Old Snake for example. Using the Naked Snake image for Big Boss is like using the Young Ocelot image for Revolver Ocelot(The Bread 04:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC))

Should Naked Snake redirect here?

This is related to the artwork debate above. Mainly due to spoiler issues, I'm suggesting that all the information on BB while he is still known as Naked Snake is moved to the Naked Snake article. I think a separation needs to be made between pre- and post-Snake Eater Naked Snake. Comments? -- Steel 20:05, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I think any actions employed by "post-snake eater naked snake" should be ragarded as the actions of big boss. Metal gear ninty 09:52, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Source

Get those images sourced right away before a person comes in and deletes them for not having a source posted. You know exactly which person I am talking about. The Shinkawa art picture, the salute picture, the Metal Gear 2 pictures, and the Naked Snake action pose picture are the most important.--Snake Liquid 18:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Good article nomination failed

This article is not eligible for good article status as it fails multiple criteria. I shall address all of these. As someone who plays many video games but has no knowledge of this one, I do not feel that I am entirely a non-specialist reader, but I was lost at the introduction. I cannot imagine a non-gamer being able to follow it at all. I had to spend more time consulting links than reading the article. Perhaps the most necessary changes will have to be made to the items under criterion 2, "factually accurate and verifiable". I feel that this article fails all of the items under this section, which are as follows:

       (a) it provides references to any and all sources used for its material;
       (b) the citation of its sources is essential, and the use of inline citations is desirable, although not mandatory;
       (c) sources should be selected in accordance with the guidelines for reliable sources;
       (d) it contains no elements of original research.

Furthermore, because it seems major editing is and has been ongoing since the nomination of the article, as evidenced by an empty references section, I feel that this article fails the stability requirement. I cannot accurately comment on bredth or NPOV in this article, because I have no personal knowledge of it, and no references to consult, by which to make such commentary. I regret that this article cannot pass at this time, but I encourage the editors to address these issues and resubmit their article for further criticism and good article status approval! Cheers! Chuchunezumi 18:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Fictional fathers

Would Big Boss form part of the Category:Fictional fathers?

Yeah probably

†he Bread 02:35, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Simply Snake

Seeing as to how Big Boss in his heydays as Naked Snake was almost always referred to as Snake, shouldn't that be acknowledged somewhere in the article? Maybe in the "also known as" section of the infobox? (FF7SquallStrife7 13:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC))

Solid Snake is almost always addressed as "Snake" also, it's just easier to say, "Hey Snake, go over there and shoot that guy," than it is to say "Hey Naked Snake..." It's just an informalization or familiarization of the full title, and isn't considered an alias. -Asriel