Talk:Bicentennial of the Kingdom of the Netherlands

Celebrating 200 years of democracy???

Although the current Kingdom of the Netherlands evolved into a democracy it hardly started out as one - and as far as I read the quoted sources they do not claim the Netherlands were a democracy in 1814. In fact Willem I wanted to establish a totalitarian monarchy, and only with the constitution of 1848 was the power of the monarch brought under democratic control; and only in 1919 women were allowed to vote.

Nevertheless this article opens with a verbatim quote from somewhere ("the achievements of 200 years of independence and of our system of democracy"), which cannot be traced back to the source (in these specific words) nor anywhere else[1]. In any case any quote should be identifiable verbatim or it should not be presented as a quote. Arnoutf (talk) 15:21, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Arnoutf:

the achievements of 200 years of independence and of our [the Dutch] system of democracy

is my translation of

de verworvenheden van 200 jaar onafhankelijkheid en van onze democratie

We can also use the official translation

Two hundred years of independence and democracy

which is less precise a translation than mine, since it implies "200 years of democracy" which is not present in the Dutch version. (The English version seems to a single-page summary of the entire website and skips over much of the historical nuance in the Dutch version.) QVVERTYVS (hm?) 15:23, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The formal motto seems to be 'Nederland is jarig. 200 jaar! Vrij en verbonden door gelijke rechten en plichten. Laten we dat samen vieren!'[2]. Which is a horrible mash-up in Dutch and would translate into something like "The Netherlands has its birthday. 200 years! Free and connected through equal rights and duties. Let's celebrate that together!" (ok not the best English, but the original Dutch is hardly better). Arnoutf (talk) 15:29, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

... which is another reason for quoting from the prose, rather than citing the motto. I'd like to get the issue resolved and get rid of the template on the first sentence; how do you suggest we proceed? Take the official English translation, come up with a better translation from the Dutch?

Re: your opinion that "200 years of democracy" is a strange claim given that Willem I was a reactionary autocrat, an NOS journalist agrees with you. I'll add this to the article if no-one beats me to it. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 16:15, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Do we need such a claim in the lead at all? It puts a lot of emphasis on what is basically one of many lines on the website. By the way the Dutch version you would probably read as "The achievements of 200 years of independence and the achievement of our current democracy" - the additional phrase "van onze" suggests it should be read like that ("de verworvenheden van 200 jaar onafhankelijkheid en van onze democratie"). Although this is already somewhat ambiguous in the Dutch text, the English translation suggests that we should read it as 200 years democracy. Perhaps a more precise translation would be "To celebrate the achievement of 200 years of independence and of [the Dutch] our democracy". But again, do we need it in the lead at all, for any other reason that the lead would become too short? Arnoutf (talk) 16:59, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

If not, I think we need the claim in the Reception section, since it's been the target of so much criticism. (The lede being too short can be solved by summarizing the festivities.) QVVERTYVS (hm?) 17:09, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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