Talk:Beverly Hills Supper Club fire

NPOV tag

I added the NPOV tag as the article as it includes a lot of subjective, POV language in it. The article is also too verbose with a lot of superfluous narrative. —  Stevie is the man!  ^{Talk | Work} 15:42, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

• Removed NPOV as far as possible, think we can now remove the tag? --Phl3djo 10:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Yes, the article seems to be improved to the point where the tag is no longer necessary. I'll go ahead and remove it. Thanks for your very good edits! —  Stevie is the man!  ^{Talk | Work} 16:02, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

The section cited that the fire erupted into a classic flashover is false. Look at Wiki's page on flashover and you'll see that a flashover does not occur until a rooms temperature is near 1000 degrees (F). No one would be alive in the room by the time a flashover occurs. If the fire exploded into the room, maybe it was a backdraft (smoke explosion, oxygen deficent fire)?

Researchers have concluded that it was altruism that may have killed the 164-166 victims. Data shows that the male victims were found funneling the female victims toward that exits. Panic WAS NOT to blame. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KarthVader (talk • contribs) 00:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Specifically, what research would this be? Book name, website URL, or magazine issue and page numbers, please. I ask because if true this goes against the evidence of the fire marshal and of the governor's commission, which found absolutely no evidence of organization in the evacuation, which is one of the reasons why so many people died - no lighting, no exit signs, no easily identifiable exits. You can't funnel anyone toward an exit if you don't know where the exit is. I'm not doubting you, but to add it to the article it it has to be verifiable and traced to a specific source, not just "research has revealed" - anyone can say that about anything. --NellieBly (talk) 04:13, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Dec 2009

I've added some sourced information from the Cincinnati Enquirer and from WLWT-TV, which produced specials on the 20th and 30th anniversaries (respectively) of the fire. I don't have an emotional connection to the fire (a year ago I hadn't even heard of it) so I hope I've been neutral and have represented what the sources have stated - please bring it up here and let me know on my talk page if you think otherwise so we can all reach consensus. Cheers! --NellieBly (talk) 04:13, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Original research

Recent edits have added material that conflicts with no original research. Writing an article based on interviews with people would be fine on a personal website, but it is not allowed here for the simple reason that there is no way for other editors to verify the accuracy of the statements. Imagine an article on politics where editor A writes "X is good" (reference: personal interviews), while editor B writes "X is bad" (reference: personal interviews). Sorry, but all this material will have to be removed from Wikipedia.

Some of the current references are:

• Robert Webster, personal research and accounts, author of Northern Kentucky Fires, board member of Kenton County Historical Society
• Personal accounts by Johnny "TV" Peluso, March, 2010 to local interested volunteers and historians.
• Personal accounts by Walter Bailey and Barbara (anonyous), violinist on stage who performed in the Cabaret Room on the night of the fire.
• Personal account of David Brock, former busboy, N. KY resident.
• Personal accounts from Wayne Dammert, former club banquet captain and David Brock, former bus boy and current researcher/archivist on the fire (2010).
• Personal account by Inner Investigational Review Panelist, hired by Gov. J. Carroll, R. Freels
• Personal account by David Brock, then busboy and 30 + year private researcher and archivist to this case, N Ky resident.
• (wishes to be kept anonymous), Hazmat Instructor, near Utica, Ohio
• Personal account of David Brock, former busboy, purported arson witness and long-time private researcher and archivist of club records and testimonies.
• Personal accounts of former club employees, Wayne Dammert and David Brock, "Survivors for Justice"

Undoubtedly this research is extremely well intentioned and involved a lot of work, but it cannot be used here. I do not have time at the moment to fix the article, but am posting this to alert anyone who was thinking of adding more that it would not be a good idea. All information must be verifiable. Johnuniq (talk) 11:09, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I've added tags for reliable sources and essay-tone; the lack of response over the last few days only underscores a sense of ownership of the article. JNW (talk) 21:18, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

The only solution I can see is a deep revert. As living persons are mentioned, this is a BLP issue was well. There will be some collateral damage but we can live with that. Dougweller (talk) 20:15, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Major revert

I have reverted the article to this June 20 revision, and I suggest that future changes should be made carefully with regard to citations, and an appropriate amount of detail for an encyclopedic article. Material should not be added without a suitable reliable source.

57.68.15.178 (talk · contribs) and 66.161.231.3 (talk · contribs) made their first edits to this article on 21 June 2010 and have not responded to polite messages on their talk pages and here. The material added by these users would be excellent on their own website, and it may be suitable to add one external link to such a site. A lot of the material is probably sourcable to this book (Inside the Beverly Hills Supper Club Fire by Ron Elliott, Wayne Dammert), but the level of detail in this article is not appropriate for Wikipedia. Johnuniq (talk) 03:58, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Cause?

Why is there no cause for the fire mentioned in the article? 66.31.76.221 (talk) 18:22, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Removed from Text

I removed the following from the section "The Fire" due to being incomplete: "Bruce Rath, a Fort Thomas firefighter who responded to the blaze, was interviewed by WLWT-TV in 2007. He said of the fire:" Jedikaiti (talk) 19:29, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

References

Victims in dead ends

The text states "Some exits could only be reached by passing through three or more interior doors and corridors. Many victims perished in dead ends after becoming lost." but I couldn't find anything about this in the sources. On the contrary it is said that 125 victims were found at exit A and 34 at Exit B and 2 from completely other part of building (4 died later). So there is no victim left in the numbers who could have perished in dead ends. --88.76.223.133 (talk) 02:02, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

The dead ends were directly at the exits A and B from the Cabaret Room, these exits did not lead directly to the outside of the building but to other parts of the building.

Apparently there were no signs pointing to the emergency exits.

After the electricity supply failed, all you had to do was turn the wrong way in the dark and you were practically trapped in a dead end.

Unfortunately, that's what happened to many...

At 10:35 in this film, a map showing where the deceased were found in the building is published.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dKSJvYS1-0

By my count, about thirty of the victims died in the dead ends.

This young survivor, Linda Hoelle, describes it very precisely in the interview from 5:30 in this documentary, it was pure coincidence that she survived...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82lQFNKNWA8 87.179.109.106 (talk) 16:55, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

The dead ends were directly at the exits A and B from the Cabaret Room, these exits did not lead directly to the outside of the building but to other parts of the building. Apparently there were no signs pointing to the emergency exits. After the electricity supply failed, all you had to do was turn the wrong way in the dark and you were practically trapped in a dead end. Unfortunately, that's what happened to many...

At 10:35 in this film, a map showing where the deceased were found in the building is published. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dKSJvYS1-0 By my count, about thirty of the victims died in the dead ends.

This young survivor, Linda Hoelle, describes it very precisely in the interview from 5:30 in this documentary, it was pure coincidence that she survived... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82lQFNKNWA8

Karsten Wagner, 16.10.2022 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.179.109.106 (talk) 16:53, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Beverly Hills Supper Club fire/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Some of the wording and language isn't quite there for a B-class IMO, but it's close. Soldan 17:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 17:56, 4 January 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 09:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Ozone Disco fire which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 01:02, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

Arson

Why is arson cited as the cause? That is conjecture. 2603:6011:1D49:BC00:AD87:3C8F:579D:87B (talk) 02:33, 25 February 2023 (UTC)