Talk:Bethnal Green trio

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Bethnal Green trio article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

A fact from Bethnal Green trio appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 17 April 2015 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that the Press Association won a court case stating that it was within the public interest to know that five girls who had been given travel bans attended the same school as three who had recently joined ISIL?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2015/April.

Wikipedia

This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.

If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.

Bangladesh Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bangladesh, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Bangladesh on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BangladeshWikipedia:WikiProject BangladeshTemplate:WikiProject BangladeshBangladesh articles

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Bangladesh To-do list:

Add more images to Bangladesh Liberation War and related pages
Clean up Climate change in Bangladesh, it needs a lot of work
Clean up History of Bangladesh after independence, it needs NPOV
Improve Bangladesh back to FA as it was demoted (see discussion)
Improve Bengali language back to FA as it was demoted (see discussion)
Improve Bengalis and related pages
Take a look at the requested articles.
Make a MRT line 3 article.
Extend, add an infobox and a map of New Eskaton to New Eskaton.

Biography

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles

Crime and Criminal Biography: Terrorism Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Terrorism task force (assessed as Low-importance).

London Low‑importance

	London portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject London, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of London on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.LondonWikipedia:WikiProject LondonTemplate:WikiProject LondonLondon-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Islam: Islam and Controversy / Salaf / Sunni Islam Low‑importance

	Islam portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Islam, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Islam-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IslamWikipedia:WikiProject IslamTemplate:WikiProject IslamIslam-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
	This article is supported by the Islam and Controversy task force.
	This article is supported by the Salaf task force.
	This article is supported by the Sunni Islam task force.

Military history: Middle East / Post-Cold War B‑class

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

B

This article has been rated as B-class on the project's quality scale.

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Middle Eastern military history task force
	Post-Cold War task force

Syria Low‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Syria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Syria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SyriaWikipedia:WikiProject SyriaTemplate:WikiProject SyriaSyria articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

WARNING: ACTIVE COMMUNITY SANCTIONS

The article Bethnal Green trio, along with other pages relating to the Syrian Civil War and ISIL, is designated by the community as a contentious topic. The current restrictions are:

Limit of one revert in 24 hours: This article is under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24-hour period)

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be sanctioned.

Remedy instructions and exemptions

Enforcement procedures:

Violations of any restrictions (excluding 1RR/reverting violations) and other conduct issues should be reported to the administrators' incidents noticeboard. Violations of revert restrictions should be reported to the administrators' edit warring noticeboard.
Editors who violate any listed restrictions may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offense.
An editor must be aware before they can be sanctioned.

With respect to any reverting restrictions:

Edits made solely to enforce any clearly established consensus are exempt from all edit-warring restrictions. In order to be considered "clearly established" the consensus must be proven by prior talk-page discussion.
Edits made which remove or otherwise change any material placed by clearly established consensus, without first obtaining consensus to do so, may be treated in the same manner as clear vandalism.
Clear vandalism of any origin may be reverted without restriction.
Reverts of edits made by anonymous (IP) editors that are not vandalism are exempt from the 1RR but are subject to the usual rules on edit warring. If you are in doubt, contact an administrator for assistance.

If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. Remember: When in doubt, don't revert!

Fork...

One of the women is dead. One is in prison in Kurdistan, and wants to return to the UK. And the last woman remains in the tiny rump of Daesh territory.

I was going to ask the contributor who started this article if they would agree with a fork, but The Almightey Drill has been blocked for sockpuppetry.

So, if there was once a role for the three to share a single article, does it make sense now? Geo Swan (talk) 07:20, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe a more snappy title is needed too. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 13:44, 17 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I repeat my suggestion all three may be independently notable... maybe they should also be in an article listing all well-known list of brides of Daesh? Geo Swan (talk) 02:44, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Geo Swan, Shamima Begum specifically has gained notoriety in the UK for wanting to come back recently. I don't think there is a purpose for a single article uniting all three women anymore. ccixam(talk) 14:38, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the Geo Swans proposal to fork Shamima Begum out into it's own article, especially as public interest in her increases including around the debate on revocation of UK citizenship. I can't see a justification for separate articles for all three of them, especially as one of them is now apparently deceased according to media reports. Therefore I feel a fork is the most appropriate course, leaving this article intact, albeit I would agree with Lugnuts that it needs a better title, and to that I would suggest possibly "Bethnal Green Trio", as they've been referred to in a number of media outlets such as ^[1] and?^[2] Aurourafx (talk) 01:19, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Abase, Begum and Sultana followed the example of a fellow student who preceded them, Sharmeena Begum. So, maybe not a trio...

I have been working on an article about a joint Canadian-American bride of ISIS, on a non-WMF wiki, with looser inclusion criteria. I didn't start it here as I suspect it would trigger claims it didn't comply with BLP. Some contributors are quick to claim BLP. In the case of two American women, who were recently interviewed by the NYTimes, most of the details that make them look bad come from their interviews.

So, should individuals be protected from having the wikipedia cover details of their lives they willingly offered to reporters who interviewed them?

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 02:56, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The proposal at the head of the article page makes sense. Shamima Begum is now notable in her own right, and the suggested title for the complementary article - List of brides of ISIL - seems reasonable. Go for it. Silas Stoat (talk) 09:04, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. And if Bethnal Green Trio is the WP:COMMONNAME, then go for that too. Compare with the West Memphis Three, for example. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 17:44, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think the fork is a no-brainer. She is notable in her own right. WP:BOLD. I have started Shamima Begum by removing the redirect. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 17:51, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 18:16, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, also. Silas Stoat (talk) 18:18, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I support all of the above, including Bethnal Green Trio as the title for concision (while still mentioning all of them by name in the first lead sentence). I also support an infobox for their statuses. wumbolo ^^^ 20:24, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Another bold act. It seems "Bethnal Green trio" has support. This also makes sense to remove the duplication of the name Shamima Begum from the titles. Google search shows around 300 results for "Bethnal Green trio" all the way back to 2015. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 10:31, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I've come late to this and put a whom tag in the article. I personally wouldn't go with this name, preferring ISIL Brides..., but there maybe is a consensus here for the ...trio. Silas Stoat (talk) 19:06, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Silas Stoat: Added a source. As usual, it's difficult to gauge when a casual mention becomes a standing title. The previous list of names seemed arbitrary. "ISIL Brides..." may be too 'charged'. There also is Brides of Daesh which effectively means the same thing. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 21:08, 23 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, agreed, it can be difficult. My concern with 'trio' is that there are likely to be other women in a similar predicament who become notable. Perhaps if, or when, that happens we can look at the title again. Thanks. Silas Stoat (talk) 16:09, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I wrote the above too soon - before taking the link to the new article Brides of Daesh. I guess that article is good for new people coming into the category who wouldn't otherwise be noteworthy. ~~I'm not sure about the title though. Bethnal Green trio at least has a load of sources; Brides of Daesh has very few, maybe because 'Daesh' is not used as widely as ISIS/ISIL.~~. It's a redirect - silly me! Silas Stoat (talk) 16:16, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'd argue that the events relating to these three individuals leaving is noteworthy in it's own right, putting aside the similarities in what they then went on to do. It was a cause of substantial discussion in the UK that 3 schoolgirls could go missing at once from the same school without anyone/any authority being able to detect and prevent it. In light of the apparent consensus around the name Bethnal Green Trio at least for now, I'm going to remove the template relating to this discussion from the article, while obviously it will be preseved on the talk page. My apologies if this is an incorrect action, if it is please someone revert it, I'm still relatively new to contributing to the discussion rather than just making minor/uncontroversial edits!Aurourafx (talk) 20:23, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

Semi-protected edit request on 20 February 2019

This edit request to Amira Abase, Shamima Begum and Kadiza Sultana has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I was writing more in source mode about updates and then I clicked preview changes and was told I couldn't edit, but each time i would list a new source I would click preview and it was fine. I have written a lot and provided sources. How do I get the edit in there? This was my edit to go straight after sources 24 and 25 :

On 19 February, Begum's mother received a letter from Home Office stating that Begum had her British citizenship revoked and asked her mother to inform her daughter of the decision. ITV News obtained the letter to give to Begum on air.^[1] Begum opened and read out loud the letter and stated that it was "unjust" and "hard to swallow", adding "My family made it sound like it would be a lot easier for me to come back to the UK when I was speaking to them in Baghouz". When asked "What would your message to the home secretary be?" by ITV News Security Editor Rohit Kachroo, she asked for her case to be reviewed again, with "a bit more sympathy and understanding" and to give her a reason "why they see me as a threat to the U.K.".^[2] There was growing debate over whether or not this was even a legal decision.^[3]^[4] Amendments were made to British national laws in 2014 which made it easier to strip dual nationals of their British citizenship. These measures were primarily aimed at terrorists who could potentially undermine UK security, in Begum's case: those who fled to Syria to fight and were attempting to return home. According to the letter given to her, she has the right to appeal to the Special Immigration Appeals Commission (SIAC). Others have also questioned what citizenship her son has and will have.^[5] In an interview with Sky News, Begum revealed information on her newborn, "It's a boy. I named him after my old son [who died] - that's what my husband wanted." and talked about being under IS care. She was asked if she knew about the beheadings that they did and responded with "I was okay with it. Because, you know, I started becoming religious just before I left. From what I heard, Islamically that is all allowed. So I was okay with it."^[6] Sawhitney36 (talk) 17:44, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. DannyS712 (talk) 17:33, 22 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "IS schoolgirl Shamima Begum stripped of UK citizenship". ITV. 19 February 2019. Retrieved 20 February 2019.
^ "Shamima Begum interview: IS bride says losing UK citizenship 'hard to swallow' as ITV News shows her Home Office letter". ITV. 20 February 2019. Retrieved 20 February 2019.
^ "How can Shamima Begum be stripped of her UK citizenship when she is a British national?". ITV. 20 February 2019. Retrieved 20 February 2019.
^ "Can ISIS Bride Shamima Begum be stripped of her British citizenship?". The Sun. 20 February 2019. Retrieved 20 February 2019.
^ "Shamima Begum: What citizenship rights do children of British parents have when born outside UK?". The Independent. 20 February 2019. Retrieved 20 February 2019.
^ "IS bride Shamima Begum full transcript: 'It was nice at first, like in the videos'". Sky News. 20 February 2019. Retrieved 20 February 2019.

Merger with Sharmeena Begum

There is an AfD going on for Sharmeena Begum, the first of the girls from Bethnal Green Academy to join ISIL in Syria. The AfD takes place here. There is a conversation if that article be merged into Bethnal Green trio. This would a) broaden the scope of this article and b) require a renaming of this article. Pinging the editors how have been part of the naming/fork discussion for views as this would reopen the conversation. @Lugnuts, Geo Swan, Ccixam, Aurourafx, Silas Stoat, and Wumbolo:. _pseudonym Jake Brockman ^talk 16:48, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It would appear as though this is case closed as the AfD reached the consensus of do not delete, which also clear up any article naming issues related to this. With that in mind I'm going to remove the template regarding this from the front page as consensus appears to have been reached elsewhere on the other article remaining independent in it's own right. Aurourafx (talk) 20:24, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47306022

[2] ttps://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/jihadi-bride-shamima-begum-bethnal-green-trio-fled-britain-with-help-from-isis-s-best-female-recruiter-vcvxzrvgj

[Itv2019-02-20c-3] "IS schoolgirl Shamima Begum stripped of UK citizenship". ITV. 19 February 2019. Retrieved 20 February 2019.

[Itv2019-02-20a-4] "Shamima Begum interview: IS bride says losing UK citizenship 'hard to swallow' as ITV News shows her Home Office letter". ITV. 20 February 2019. Retrieved 20 February 2019.

[Itv2019-02-20b-5] "How can Shamima Begum be stripped of her UK citizenship when she is a British national?". ITV. 20 February 2019. Retrieved 20 February 2019.

[TheSun2019-02-20-6] "Can ISIS Bride Shamima Begum be stripped of her British citizenship?". The Sun. 20 February 2019. Retrieved 20 February 2019.

[TheIndependent2019-02-20-7] "Shamima Begum: What citizenship rights do children of British parents have when born outside UK?". The Independent. 20 February 2019. Retrieved 20 February 2019.

[Sky2019-02-20-8] "IS bride Shamima Begum full transcript: 'It was nice at first, like in the videos'". Sky News. 20 February 2019. Retrieved 20 February 2019.

[1]

[2]

[1]

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

[6]