Talk:Beslan school siege/Archive 4

moved here

This list - in russian language - was distributed among with photos of the killed hostagetakers by ossetian investigators in 2005.

СПИСОК
опознанных террористов,

участников захвата школы №1 г. Беслана 01.09 2004 года. 

1.
2. Хочубаров Магомед Мурцелович
3. Камурзоев Султан Магомед-Гериевич
4. Цечоев Муса Исаевич 1969 г.р.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9. Кулаев Хампаш
10.
11.
12. Торжхоев Иса Джемалдинович
13.
14.
15.
16. Шабиханов (Шибиханов) Маирбек Сайдалиевич
17.
18.
19.
20. Ходов Владимир Анатольевич
21.
22. Цечоев Бейал Баширевич
23. Ахмедов Хизраил Хансолтанович
24.
25.
26.
27. Илиев Адам Магомед-Ханович
28.
29.
30. ??? Торж(Ш)хоев

---

please translate and check it ! ---------------------------

Map does not make clear where Ossetia is exactly

Same with the Beslan article. Looks like a puzzle piece but fails in its attempt to provide geographical context.

Ok. I should do it myself but maybe somebody can do it now.

--Savedor 20:30, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Beslan_school_hostage_crisis&diff=148877371&oldid=148789867

--HanzoHattori 04:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I finished cleanup - copyedit request now

Also comments, new rating, whatever. --HanzoHattori 11:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I did some further works on the identitities on the page. The articles on the individual people need work, even in case of these who already have them. How about the new rating? --HanzoHattori 11:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, a reference cleanup would be nice. Come on people, help a bit. --HanzoHattori 11:17, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Sadly, it seems the article's previous "warfare" has left the majority of editors unwilling to touch this, which is unfortunate because it certainly used to be a promising candidate for Featured status - but over time it became a cesspool like 9/11. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 17:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

It isn't now? (I have no idea where are the "unsourced quotes".) --HanzoHattori 19:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

1) The original "pre-warfare" article was a disgrace, taking such things as Kavkaz Center as gospel.

2) There used to be many more images to this article. They were originally uploaded either after I had spend considerable time tracking down the creators and writing back and forth to obtain permission. Or agreement from commons admins. that they fell in under accepted usage. A number of these images I had uploaded have now been deleted - with no little helping from Sherurcij who'd come back from time to time to try and delete them, while I suppose hoping nobody watched. Illustrations are an important element in an article like this and the article is poorer for the result. I suppose I could upload the images again, but I don't know if I can be bothered when I know somebody will try to have them deleted while I look the other way.

FYI, I strongly supported keeping images of the attackers themselves, the images (that were not on Commons) were images by news photographers of "grieving mothers crying" or "A young girl leaning beside a stretcher", nothing historical, purely illustrative and emotive. The 9/11 article can use images of the planes hitting the tower in a "fair use" sense, even Falling Man as a historic photo...but random passersby crying is not public. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

3) After the "League of Copyeditors" finished their cleanup in February 2007, they offered the advice that the citation style should be made consistent. I already made a lot of work to this end in February 2007 [1]. But now again I see there have creeped in no less than 54 cites of the old format. This will again take some considerable work to clean up to a consistent cite style. All cites should be of the "<ref>....</ref>" kind. Rune X2 18:34, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Voice of Beslan under attack

Shake-Up Of Beslan Group Ordered

By Alexander Osipovich Staff Writer

A court has ruled that a group that has been fiercely critical of the government's handling of the 2004 Beslan attack must change leaders. Ella Kesayeva, the current leader of the group, Voice of Beslan, called Friday's decision by the Leninsky District Court in Vladikavkaz unjust and said it had been based on forged signatures.

"Since the moment of our creation, the authorities have been fighting us with every means possible," Kesayeva said by telephone Monday from Vladikavkaz.

more --HanzoHattori 15:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

That is certainly worth mentioning in the aricle.Biophys 18:42, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Islamic fundamentalists?

The reference provided doesn't characterize the attackers to be islamic fundamentalists.

"The Beslan school hostage crisis (also referred to as the Beslan school siege or Beslan Massacre) began when a group of armed Chechen separatists and Islamic fundamentalists"

Frankly, I can't even see, how this article provides the basis for the quote. ~_~

81.195.11.66 20:35, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Good source

I think this article should be modified, especially in introduction, to explain more clearly what really happened. There is a good reference on this subject: [2]. Please pay attention on the following:

"...The most powerful confirmation, however, came in a report released by Yuri Saveliev, a member of the federal parliamentary investigative commission and a highly regarded expert on the physics of combustion. Saveliev, a Duma deputy, was the only such expert on the commission. Saveliev concluded that the first explosion was the result of a shot from a flame thrower fired from the fifth story of a building near the school at 1:03 P.M. The second explosion came 22 seconds later and was caused by a high explosive fragmentation grenade with a dynamite equivalent of 6.1 kilograms shot from another five story building on the same street. The explosions, according to Saveliev, caused a catastrophic fire and the collapse of the roof of the school gymnasium, which led to the deaths of the majority of the hostages. The order to put out the fire did not come for two hours. As a result, hostages who could have been saved were burned alive.

According to Saveliev, another 106 to 110 hostages died after terrorists moved them from the burning gym to the school's cafeteria, which came under heavy fire from security forces using flamethrowers, rocket launchers, and tanks. His analysis thus supports the view of human rights activists that at least 80 percent of the hostages were killed by indiscriminate Russian fire. "Biophys 03:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Of course, there are many Russian publications that tell exactly the same and much more, such as these: [3] [4] [5], and especially these: [6] [7] [8]. So, I am trying to tell that the version of events described in this article is seriously outdated. It should be revised. [9]. Biophys 04:00, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Just for starters, I suggest to include in Introduction the following:

Most of the hostages died from indiscriminate heavy fire from Russina special forces who used flamethrowers, rocket launchers, tanks, and fragmentation grenades.Biophys 04:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

"Indiscriminate heavy fire" sounds highly biased to say the least. In any case, it is incorrect. The hostages died because they had been taken hostage by terrorists. If there is to be placed responsibility, it must fall squarely on the terrorists, without whom most of the hostages would be alive and well today. The Russian forces might have bungled the rescue attempt – already a nearly impossible undertaking – but that remains of secondary concern to there actually being a reason for such a rescue attempt. Rune X2 07:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

But it was totally indiscriminate. Are you aware weapons like Shmel ("The effects produced by FAEs (a long-duration high pressure and heat impulse) are often likened to the effects produced by low-yield nuclear weapons, but without the problems of radiation.)") are even intenationally prohibited to use anywhere near civilians?

I also remember reading a pre-2004 book which mentioned firing of two Shmels at the beginning of the frist assault at Budyonnovsk. The parts of hospital were also set on fire.

Btw, the Wiki article, which ommits the use in Beslan (or Budyonnovsk for that matter), also mentions the use of Buratino (which is basically an elephant-Shmel launcher on the tank threads) against the city of Grozny which was of course also full of civilians and children. Thousands of them. --HanzoHattori 11:59, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Query - Are we CERTAIN that the rocket launchers in question fired Thermobaric munitions? I note in the that in the definition of the rocket launcher in question, possibly slightly mis-chronicled on wikipedia as RPO-A Shmel (Bumblebee) rather than as RPO, it mentions that the RPO-Z incendiary rounds can be fired from the launcher as well as the more destructive themobaric RPO-A rounds. It sounds, from the descriptions of the effects on Beslan school, that it was these RPO-Z incendiary munitions that were used. SupernautRemix (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 15:51, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Everybody agrees the Russians didn’t have the required military material, weren’t sufficiently organized and/or trained and probably bungled the rescue operation. Although it is hard to imagine any good resolution to the hostage situation, especially since the terrorists had already started murdering the hostages before the Russian intervention. What I feel is completely wrong is, is to conclude that the Russians were to blame for the whole incident and the many deaths. The Russians handled a difficult situation worse than they could have, but the responsibility must ultimately lie with the terrorists, without whom none of this would have happened. Don't blame the victim, even if she did wear skimpy clothes. Rune X2 14:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Good solution... okay: (let's skip "stop them on the route, post guards when warned in advance, finish the conflict already", etc.) 1) do not lie on the number of hostages (so-called harmful consequences); 2) negotiate (but really, not just pretend, and lie about "no demands" at the same time); 3) while storming (when there's no other option), do not use what ammounts to miniature weapons of mass destruction (in the West, they don't even use assault rifles - they use submachine guns, special handguns, flashbangs, CS gas... heavy machine guns? grenade launchers? RPGs? tanks? "flamethrower" rockets often compared to nuclear weapons? uh, WHAT?). And so on. I remember watching a "policeman" with an RPG-7 on his shoulder on the second day, and I knew already how this will end. To paraphrase Chernomirdin, "as always". In Pervomayskoye in 1996 they attempted to liberate hostages using Grad (disambiguation) launchers. Oh wait, these hostages were supposed to be "dead"... if there's Stockholm syndrome, there should one after this, about the situation when the government decides to kill everyone just to finish the standoff. --HanzoHattori 17:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

While I agree witih Biophys, I should warn him that he will face..."heavy indiscriminate reverting and censuring" by certain WP users who have essentially "claimed" this article as their own fiefdom and turned it into telling the story they want it to tell. Anybody will tell you, there are at least three different versions of this article, through its history...when it tried to use the word "terrorist" in every paragraph at least once, then when it tried to blame everything on a massive Putin conspiracy, and finally when it claimed that the hostage-takers were all drug-addicted child molesters. It's absurd, and this article is one of the few that is simply too ridiculous for me to try and fix any longer. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 07:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you take another look - I removed the mentioned parts from tabloids ("they knifed babies, they raped children" too, yes). Btw, I guess the non-controversional details like the exact number of them men executed and of these killed in the suicide bomber's blast should be known by now? --HanzoHattori 12:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

And as of the tank & Shmel use, we would dedicate a special sections of them if you want. We would also ask the people of Beslan to provide the photos, including of the school and of the found Shmel tubes, and maybe even to take a look and correct the inaccuracies. --HanzoHattori 12:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

In reply to User:Rune X2, I want to tell the following. "Who is guilty of what" is pretty much clear. These particular terrorists are guilty of putting people's lives in danger (a serious crime); they are guilty of practically torturing the hostages by leving them without water, etc.; and they are guilty of murder of those who they executed (if any). But the specual forces are guilty of murder of those who were killed by a discriminatory fire. If a person shoots school children from a tank, knowing that he is shooting children, then he is a murderer. This is very simple. The situation here is pretty much unique (it is similar only to Moscow hostage crisis). There are numerous hostage taking cases in history poorly handled by police (Israel Olympic team and others), and, yes, the hostages were killed. But they were killed by hostage takers, not by police. Can you tell me any other cases when hundreds of hostages were killed by police/governmental special forces? I only know Moscow hostage crisis and Beslan. This is simply a matter of fact that people were physically killed by special forces.22:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

If you cannot recall other instances like this, then yes it's probably because there aren't that many cases of hostage taking on such a major scale - and fewer still involving school children. The only incident I can recall that is even remotely similar to this one is the Palestinian terrorist attack on an Israeli school i 1974 where about 90 hostages were held - and were ultimately 26 hostages were killed and another 60 wounded. Percentage wise, that is no better than this instance in Beslan. And the Israelis are supposed to be masters of such situations. Incidentally that article is called the Ma'alot massacre, while this one will have to do with Beslan school hostage crisis and not the, for instance, the Beslan school massacre, and the article doesn't start out by saying the massacre was perpetrated by Israelis - but then there are fewer Russians than Israelis on Wikipedia. Rune X2 13:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

You example only enforces my point. Yes, that was a badly executed hostage rescue operation. But who did physically kill the hostages? Hostage takers, not police, if I understand correctly. The example provided by Hanzo (in Mecca), however, is indeed more or less similar to Beslan.Biophys 15:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

What point? That there is a difference between incompetence and malicious intent. The Russians showed the first, the terrorists had the latter in spades.

Very simple point. The hostages were killed by what and by whom? By fire (RPG, flamethrowers, tanks, etc.) from Russian special forces, and by a fire in the building that resulted from that. This is basic fact, which has supported expert's conclusion and even by photos provided by Hanzo. That simple fact should be made clear in this article. BTW, this is a standard "modus operandi" of Russian special forces, if you look at other their operations. Another point is that Putin knew very well that hostages will be killed (he knows how such operations are conducted by Russian special forces), and he gave an order to kill hostages.Biophys 14:14, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

It isn't even so much a case of the Russians, or local forces, disregarding civilian losses - as just failing to take basic steps to handle the situation professionally. They didn't even manage to establish a cordoned off perimeter. Enraged local Ossetian armed civilians, many who had relatives inside the school, mingled with the troops. The final attack caught many by surprise. And when on the third day the wounded started arriving, they hadn't medical people on site or the means to transport the wounded to hospitals. etc. But this is indicative of unprepared Russian response, not cold disregard for civilian lives. Rune X2 08:03, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Firing the weapons of war at the clearly visible unarmed civilian women waving white cloths with a small kids posted alongside them was "not cold disregard for civilian lives"? Posting human shields was "cold disregard", but firing at them wasn't? Or something? You treat all of the Russian "police" action on the 3rd day like some kind of natural disaster, looking only at the cordon before this and at the casaulty rescue action "when the wounded started arriving". Worse still, it wasn't only gunfire. If it was only bullets by the troops, and by the civilians, it wouldn't he half that bad as was BURNING PEOPLE ALIVE using banned "flamethrowers" (incidenary rockets). --HanzoHattori 15:13, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

No I don't treat it as a "natural disaster" – as I said, mostly I categorize the Russia response as a combination of a very difficult situation and a great deal of incompetence. Not a good cocktail to start with. And when you add to this a great deal of fog-of-war, panic-of-war etc. things are just going to go very wrong. Keeping your head cold and distinguishing between terrorists and civilians, when being fired upon and bombs going off left and right, is just not something that is very easy. But never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence. On the other hand it is beyond question that the terrorists with cold intent put those children in harms way.

The largest single direct cause of civilian death was the collapse of the roof in the gym. The roof collapsed from a number of causes, the terrorists bombs going off, soldiers placing explosives in the walls to come in, fire, etc. perhaps rockets being fired at the building? and perhaps a bad construction to begin with? But saying that the majority of hostages were killed by Russian weapons, when that could only have been one of a number of causes leading to the collapse of the roof, would be misleading.

Another big killer was the fire in the gym. A fire was inevitable whatever weapons had been used. The fault here was mainly failing to put it out. Inadequate preparations for sure.

In any case, the controversy of the Russian response is already mentioned in the lead. As well as in large sections of the body of the article. Rune X2 07:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

"Collapse of the roof" and "fire in the gym" was one thing. See the pictures.[10] --HanzoHattori 08:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

How to make this article NPOV and objective? I think we should not discuss too much such difficult questions as "Who is guilty of what?". Instead, we should clearly tell, right in the introduction, what was the physical reason of people's death, according to most recent data. This is Shmel firing, fragmentation grenade, and tank fire from the surrounding Russian spoecial forces. Let's facts speak for themselves.Biophys 22:34, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I can put this very simple. That "school crisis" was a massacre of school children (hundreds died). Massacre by whom? That should be explained.Biophys 22:47, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

And from the other side, they put them (women, children) in the cafeteria windows knowing the soldiers and tanks won't stop shooting. They knew it, it happens every time - human shields just don't work in Russia! (they knew in Moscow, and they actually told the audience to take cover behind the seats because there will be shooting - similar in Pervomayskoye, they protected their hostages) It's hammer and anvil situation, sucks to be a hostage, but in Beslan it was worse than ever. Actually, the whole thing didn't do much sense. They forgot to demand the press conference (that's what Basayev did in 1995), instead demanded a bunch of people who mostly just ignored them. "Dangerous" hostages would safely be just released, instead of executed without any reason. And much more, just really stupid, improvised (except for combat), RUTHLESS, and also very suspicious (I won't dwell on the last one further, just facts not theories).

Of course, I strongly agree with this. Worst kind of criminals! Where they came from? That is really interesting, and yes, suspicious.Biophys 03:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they used children as "human shields". But it is my strong personal opinion that shooting children in the windows is much worse that putting children in the windows. Former is the actual murder, while latter is putting people's life in danger (which is also a crime). Let's imagine for a minute that a hostage taker in the United States forces children to stand in the window, and a US police officer shoots those children just between the eyes. I am sure such "police officer" would spend the rest of his life in prison.Biophys 03:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

It's the same thing (putting in the line of fire), if you ask me. Both sides were clearly preapred to do everything to kill each other. I remember one interview when a commando said it was "necessary" to shoot a hostage first to shoot a terrorist (I won't find it now). oh god, no. They just didn't get the whole "priorities" thing at all. Also, some more pictures: [11] (RPG), [12] (RPG), [13] (a tank), [14] (GP), [15] (the Shmels found, it also discussed the international legality, or maybe rather criminality, and I guess pravdabeslana and can give us photos - I'll ask). --HanzoHattori 08:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you! These pictures are great because they show real facts, not opinions.Biophys 15:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC) It would be great to use some of them in this article.Biophys 15:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

A nitpick - 186 children died, not "hundreds", and discriminate fire would be actually good in this situation ("indiscriminate" means they hit everyone, which is what they did). And the Mecca hostage taking was one hellish incident with only small article, a large number of civilians were killed by the security forces (many of them actually joined the terrorists). --HanzoHattori 23:48, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Indeed, this incident in Mecca is similar. As about "discriminate fire would be good", I disagree. They had to wait just for a few hours until arrival of Aslan Maskhadov who would try to negotiate with rebels and might succeed.Biophys 03:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I just discussed vocabluary. --HanzoHattori 07:26, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, someone archive the old talk plz. Oh, and I just remembered something - didn't the "renovation workers" also cut down the trees in the summer, clearing the ground around schools for the observation from inside?--HanzoHattori 23:49, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

So, a practical question: do you think something should be changed in the current version of this article? If you wish, you can make corrections. If not, I can do some changes later.Biophys 02:29, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

What should be mentioned in the article

Sorry, I have to use Russian language sources. According to official conclusions of two parliamentary commissions [16]:

По команде начальника ЦСН (генерала Тихонова. — Е.М.) и в целях минимизации потерь сотрудников ФСБ был выведен на огневые позиции танк (бортовой номер 325), экипаж которого возглавлял командир танкового взвода старший лейтенант А. По командам начальника ЦСН ФСБ Тихонова, находившегося на танке, командир А. последовательно выполнил две огневые задачи. Первую — с 20.00 по 20.30 — четыре выстрела, вторую — с 20.30 до 21.00 — три выстрела. Огонь велся осколочно-фугасными снарядами в проемы окон столовой. ... Также по команде генерала Тихонова был открыт огонь по укрепленным точкам террористов из огнеметов. Всего было сделано 9 выстрелов из огнеметов. ... Анализ характера и причин гибели 331 человека дает следующую статистику: пулевые ранения — 51 человек (из них 21 человек был убит 1 и 2 сентября, а 10 — спецназовцы); осколочные ранения — 150 человек, термические ожоги — 10 человек, повреждения тупыми предметами (фрагментами горящей крыши спортзала) — 4 человека. Причину гибели 116 человек эксперты установить не смогли из-за сильнейшего воздействия открытого пламени, вплоть до полного обугливания.

So, almost all hostages were either burned alive (flamethrowers and resulting fire) or died from tank fire.Biophys 03:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Why are the rapes of children being described as "sexual improprieties?" Sounds like something two co-workers might engage in. -S.A. Smith —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.177.25.139 (talk) 04:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Could you please provide a reference about this? I could not find one.Biophys —Preceding unsigned comment added by Biophys (talk • contribs) 04:52, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

What is the source for "sexual improprieties?" Doesn't that sound a bit, well, polite under the circumstances? If adults engage in sexual contact with children, whether they are being held hostage at gun point or not, it is always without consent and thus "rape." My source is John Giduck's book "Terror at Beslan: A Russian Tragedy With Lessons for America's Schools." -- S.A. Smith —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.177.25.139 (talk) 20:19, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I only asked you about the source. This statement was unsourced. So, what exactly this book is telling on the matter? I would appreciate if you provide exact citation. Did author of the book refer to any specific primary source, especially one available online?Biophys 20:42, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

What could be excluded

The article is also very big. Some portions are outdated and probably can be removed. I would suggest to remove "Versions of the initial events" and start from description of "Storming by the Russian forces". I would also remove "Condemnation" in "International" response per WP:Recentism. How about that?Biophys 00:29, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see how the world responding to the terrorist attack fall under a WP:Recentism. Clearly the attack provoked a great deal of international outrage and sympathy, and when everyone from Kofi Annan, over Mandela, the Pope, Amnesty International to president Bush express their sympathy, then that's worth mentioning. Rune X2 06:55, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Some original research here?

A part of "Motives" ("Islamic Fundamentalism") tells the following:

Shamil Basayev stated that the attackers' goals were not limited to merely Chechen nationalism and independence, as he also had objectives relating to establishing an Islamic Emirate across the whole of the North Caucasus (including predominantly Russian Orthodox Christian North Ossetia) stretching from the Black Sea to Caspian Sea.[47][48] The only surviving attacker, Nur-Pashi Kulayev, claimed that attacking a school and targeting mothers and young children was not merely coincidental, but was deliberately designed for maximum outrage with the purpose of igniting a wider war in the Caucasus.

According to this theory, the attackers hoped that the mostly Orthodox Christian Ossetians would attack their mostly Muslim Ingush and Chechen neighbours to seek revenge, encouraging ethnic and religious hatred and strife throughout the North Caucasus.[49][47] North Ossetia and Ingushetia had previously been involved in a brief, but bloody conflict in 1992 over disputed land in the North Ossetian Prigorodny District, leaving an estimated 600 dead and 50,000 displaced.

The expected backlash against neighbouring nations failed to materialise on a massive scale. In 2007, however, the office of the presidential envoy for the Southern Federal District announced that a North Ossetian armed group engaged in abductions as retaliation for the Beslan school hostage taking.[27]

I checked all cited sources and found only the following: According to Nurpasha Kulaev, "Polkovnik" (not Basaev) told them that their goal is to start war in the entire Caucasus. That is all. I am telling this, because another source (currently number "2") provides some details about a "secret" Basyev statement on September 2, which contradicts the text above.Biophys 00:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

This is not to say that everything is completely wrong. I mean the following [17]

"On September 2, Aushev entered the school and left with 26 hostages, 15 children and 11 women. He also brought out a note with demands from Shamil Basayev, the terrorist leader who had organized the attack but was not himself present in Beslan. The existence of the note was concealed from the public. The authorities falsely stated that the terrorists had presented no demands.

In fact, the conditions suggested by Basayev were not unreasonable. While he proposed formal independence for Chechnya in exchange for security for Russia, he also said an independent Chechnya would conclude no military or political agreements directed against Russia, would remain in the ruble zone, and would join the Commonwealth of Independent States. Finally, Basayev said that although the Chechen rebels had played no part in the 1999 apartment building bombings in Moscow and Volgodonsk that had served as the pretext for the start of the Second Chechen War, the rebels would publicly take responsibility for them, an indication that Basayev really believed the bombings had been carried out by the FSB." Biophys 00:50, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I have put {{fact}} instead of the misleading references. I have no doubts the theory exists and may even be true, but the references do not tell about it Alex Bakharev 02:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

The first cite says right there in the intro:

"When the Chechen terrorist mastermind Shamil Basayev hijacked hundreds of hostages including many schoolchildren in Beslan last week, it was not for a narrow nationalist cause.

His objective is more radical - and less likely to be achieved - than the aims of more run-of-the-mill Chechen nationalists, who merely want full independence from Russia.

He dreams of establishing an Islamic Emirate across the North Caucasus, and to do so, he has been fomenting the Islamic rebellion that plagues states across the broad stretch of territory from the Red Sea to the Caspian."

The other cite is down with archive.org for the moment. archive.org has had some trouble the last weeks. Rune X2 06:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Here's the other cite:

For us the most important thing is not the status of our Republic but the impossibility to put up with the order they are imposing on us, which is alien to Muslims. We believe that Muslims cannot live according to the laws of kafirs� (infidels�); Muslims have their own laws given to them by the Most High. These laws are called Shari�a. We are fighting to establish the laws of Allah, Shari�a laws in our land.

[...]

Q: That means that those in who say that you want to create a caliphate in the from sea to sea, are right?

R: Yes, it is so. Since they are unwilling to negotiate with us, then we�ll be doing what we can. And there is a lot we can do. Next year the war will seize the entire from the to the . Apart from and Ingushetia, this year another guerrilla war has already started in two areas of bordering . I swear by Allah, this is only the beginning.

Rune X2 07:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I specifically failed to find references that Basayev was trying to provoke Osetin's response and a large Ingush-Osetin war. It seems to be straightforward but not supported by references Alex Bakharev 07:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• I have found a reference to the theory and put it instead of the fact tag Alex Bakharev 07:51, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Alex! The text of Basayev's letter (I hope they made a graphological expertise to prove that author is indeed Basayev?!) [18]:

От раба Аллах1а 

Шамиля Басаева Президенту РФ В.В. Путину Владимир Путин, эту войну начал не ты. Но ты можешь ее закончить, если тебе хватит мужества и решимости Де Голля. Мы предлагаем тебе разумный мир на взаимно выгодной основе по принципу: "Независимость в обмен на безопасность". В случае вывода войск и признания независимости Чеченской Республики Ичкерия, мы обязуемся: не заключать ни с кем против России никаких политических, военных и экономических союзов, не размещать на своей территории иностранные военные базы, даже на временной основе, не поддерживать и не финансировать группы или организации, ведущие вооруженные методы борьбы против РФ, находиться в единой рублевой зоне, войти в состав СНГ.

Кроме того, мы можем подписать ДКБ, хотя нам более приемлем статус нейтрального государства.

Также мы можем гарантировать отказ всех мусульман России от вооруженных методов борьбы против РФ, как минимум на 10-15 лет, при условии соблюдении свободы вероисповедания (что, <нрзб> закреплено в Конституции РФ). Мы не имеем отношения к взрывам домов в Москве и Волгодонске, но можем в приемлемой форме и это взять на себя.

Чеченский народ ведет национально-освободительную борьбу за свою Свободу и Независимость, за свое самосохранение, а не для того, чтобы разрушить Россию или ее унизить. Будучи свободными, мы будем заинтересованы в сильном соседе. Мы предлагаем тебе мир, а выбор за тобой. Аллах1у Акбар Подпись 30.08.04

Basayev must be a complete idiot to think that hostage taking and this letter would work. He looks very much as an agent provocateur. Biophys 19:24, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Continuing "good source" discussion

"Collapse of the roof" and "fire in the gym" was one thing. See the pictures.[19]

I'm not going to analyze these pictures, but Savelyev said it was a Shmel at the attic (Pavel Felgenhauer put the Shmel-on-school theory already in Oct. 2004 [20] and even said the Shmels were filmed on the opposite roof even during the crisis) and a special RPG round at the wall under the window (there's a hole there). --HanzoHattori 17:39, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, I noticed this too: "In addition, photos taken by journalists after the siege did not show any holes in the walls inside the gymnasium (where they should have been if mines and bombs had exploded inside), but a large hole was visible under the window near the gymnasium's porch."[21] --HanzoHattori 18:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Felgenhauer's another article How The School Was Stormed. --HanzoHattori 17:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I have to look through the sources, but these photo are very interesting, espectially the second one from the bottom. It shows fire in the gym, roof is not collapsed yet, and a hole in the wall from the other side of the building (entrance of the Shmel shell?). Hostages are nowhere to be seen. Some of them could be dead on the floor, while others have already escaped from the building. It means no one died from the collapse of the roof, if I understand this correctly.Biophys 18:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

It's the impact point of the special (not shaped-charge but explosive-fragmentation) RPG I believe. Not all dead, but many wounded and even concious. You can see some sitting, a little girl who was thrown out by the blast climbs back in (to her mother?).

It is important to note that a significant number of the explosive devices rigged up by the fighters in the sports hall did not explode, while some of them did explode as a result of the raging fire. A large number of the hostages in the sports hall died precisely as a result of the first two explosions. Some of the survivors managed to run out of the sports hall, while after the explosions others were taken by the fighters into the school’s canteen, assembly hall and southern wing. The fighters moved the people because a fire had started in the sports hall and had taken hold very quickly. The fire in the sports hall started as a result of the first shot, practically at 13.05, as the school’s attic area, ceiling rafters and lagging had begun to burn where the thermobaric grenade fell. The burning rafters and lagging fell onto the wounded, but still living, hostages. The order of the head of the operational HQ, FSB Maj-Gen V.A. Andreyev, to extinguish the fire came at 15.10, the first water at 15.28, that is, two and a half hours after the start of the fire. In this time all the hostages who remained in the sports hall were burnt. Helpless and wounded, they were burnt alive.[22]

"The first explosion in the sports hall, packed with weak hostages, was the result of a shot from an RPO-A (rocket-propelled infantry flame-thrower with a thermobaric action, in other words a Shmel flame-thrower) from the five-storey House No 37 in School Lane. The shot was fired at 13.03 into the northeast corner of the attic space of the sports hall, which adjoins the gym. As the FSB did not reply to the official enquiry of the parliamentary commission, the author admits that in this case an RPO-A might not have been used, but a TBG-7V grenade (RPG-7V1 grenade thrower), RShG-2 (rocket-propelled assault grenade) or an MPO-A (although at that time this type of weapon might not yet have been in the armoury of the Russian Federation FSB’s special centre). As the shot was made by a thermobaric grenade with a simplified charge, then it is likely that a weapon of the types mentioned with similar specifications was used.

The second explosion in the sports hall, which was heard 22 seconds later, was caused by a high explosive splinter grenade, with an equivalent of 6.1 kg of TNT, fired from an RShG-1 grenade thrower in the five-storey House No 41 in School Lane. The shot destroyed the wall beneath the northern window’s sill, close to the western wall of the sports hall."

I think the attic above there was where the sniper nest was. --HanzoHattori 19:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Right. But I am not sure this is properly described in the present version of the article. This should be summarized and described.Biophys 22:03, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Just don't remove the official version(s). --HanzoHattori 12:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

That the girl was blown out from the gym, would I should imagine be an indication of an explosion from inside the gym – i.e. of the terrorists bombs. Likewise, several of the photos show that the wall had been broken so as the debris falling outwards – like for instance the second photo from the top [23]. But really I'm not going to speculate, because I don't have the qualifications and photos without full background detail of time and circumstances, etc. prove nothing and I'm not going to emulate all those idiot 9/11 "truthers". Pictures can be used to illustrate the article, not prove anything. Also it wouldn't go under WP:NOR Rune X2 09:12, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

btw. I believe I read that the girl climbing back in was found alive Rune X2 09:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

For me it's pretty clear she and the debris were blown up by the blast under the window on the opposite wall. "Something" hit the wall right from the other side and punched through the wall, and the shockwave threw her out through the window (along with an adult woman actually). Translation: [24] --HanzoHattori 11:09, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

There is plenty of evidence already that the assault of the school started with explosions outside of the building rather than inside it (see EDM, October 18, 2004). Novaya gazeta newspaper also found out from sources in the Investigation Commission that several spent flame-throwers had been left on the roof a building across the road in front of the school (Novaya gazeta, October 7, 2004; EDM, October 13, 2004). According to the newspaper, many hostages were almost totally consumed in the fire caused by the flame-throwers. (Novaya gazeta, October 7, 2004). German Revasov, a resident of Beslan who took part in the rescue operation, told a Radio Liberty correspondent, "People were mostly killed by the burning roof that collapsed" (Radio Liberty, October 21, 2004). Revasov also remarked that the hostages had no shrapnel wounds. This was further evidence that there was no explosion inside the building. Zifa Tsirikova, a forty-year old survivor, told a correspondent from Britain's Guardian newspaper that on September 3 the ceiling of the school started to burn and fell down . . . and this would not have happened if the explosion had been inside (yufo.ru, February 16).

[25] --HanzoHattori 11:14, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Sure, we should not interpret the photos ourselves, but we can cite published sources that interpret these photos and other materials.Biophys 20:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree. I do not have this book by Dunlop, but there is a review [26].Biophys 04:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Fixed up the censorship section

--HanzoHattori 14:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC) MAY GOD BLESS THEM ALL! ILL PRAY FOR THEIR PEACE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.48.60.196 (talk) 02:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Links help needed

I wanted to fix the remaining links, but http://www.osce.org%2Fdocuments%2Frfm%2F2004%2F09%2F3586_en.pdf don't work anymore, and http://www.osce.org/publications/rfm/2005/10/16744_474_en.pdf loads an empty page for me. --HanzoHattori 22:08, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

hmm. http://www.osce.org/documents/rfm/2004/09/3586_en.pdf works for me. So does http://www.osce.org/publications/rfm/2005/10/16744_474_en.pdf . Both of them works fine Rune X2 22:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

"15 to 22 of the adult male hostages" executed

Well, how many exactly? 3 years passed, come on. --HanzoHattori 22:31, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

There were only 8 bodies in the execution room by the time Aslan Kudzayev escaped - while throwing them out of window. +2 killed in the gym = 10 (maybe 11 if Kudzayev's comrade was also killed, and 6-7 if the bodies included these killed earlier)... Maybe the rest (4 to 16) being these killed in the human bomb blast, along with 3 militants? --HanzoHattori 22:40, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Why deletion?

Would someone rationally explain to me why List of victims of the Beslan school massacre was deleted? --HanzoHattori (talk) 13:12, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I know that there are people who would call for the deletion of a list oif victims of 9/11, but List of Charles Whitman's victims has never had any problems. It's a bit hypocritical. We are not a memorial, granted, but we should still list casualties of specific actions - it's part of preserving history. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 16:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

More needed on the political effects of the attack

There is more than ample evidence that the Beslan attack marked the end of Western support for Chechen terrorism, or "the struggle for independence" as the supporters of terrorism and genocide would call it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.194.63.129 (talk) 10:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

1992 Beslan school hostage crisis?

In the first hours of hostage taking, when 1200 children and parents were captured by terrorists in school #1, the local media announced that the school had been taken by members of the 'Ingush dzamaat'1. Later the choice of the school (during the Ingush-Ossetian conflict of 1992 the sports gym of Beslan school #1 accommodated Ingush civilian hostages taken by the Osetian fighters), and the fact that there were eight Ingush among terrorists in the group, allowed local authorities and journalists, and echoing them Moscow-based experts to link the tragedy of Beslan to the Ingush-Ossetian conflict of 1992. http://www.policy.hu/sokirianskaia/brief.html

Mr. Khadziyev says he condemns the Beslan attack, with its terrible death toll of children. But then he adds: "Do you know why the fighters drove past two Ossetian schools before taking School No. 1 in Beslan? It's because the Ossetians used that very school as a prison for our people in 1992. Yes, our women and children were held there, in that same gym, beaten up and denied food and water. Nobody talks about that, do they?" http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0913/p06s01-woeu.html

Depending on position and ethnically motivated interpretation, the ambiguity of this is illustrated very well by the tragic word "Beslan." In 1992, the Ossetians set up a filtration center at School No. 1 in Beslan, where they tortured and killed Ingush. It was for this reason that the school was chosen by the terrorists for their hostage taking that resulted in the deaths of several hundred Ossetian children. http://www.rusrev.org/eng/content/review/default.asp?shmode=8&ida=1463&ids=136 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.234.60.154 (talk) 15:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Is it true? Or is it a rumour/myth among the Ingushes? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.234.60.154 (talk) 15:36, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

See also Ossetian-Ingush conflict. It is entirely possible that hostage-takers selected this Beslan school to make tis look like a retaliation. But it was hardly a retaliation if Basayev was responsible.Biophys (talk) 15:58, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Like most such cases, the truth probably lies in the middle (though WP:OR prevents 'reading between the lines'), but it's probably true that Ingushes were held extrajudicially at the school for a period in 1992. It's also probably true that Basayev knew he could overinflate the importance/notoriety of that act among the Ingush militants to give a feeling of justification in attacking the school. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 16:09, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Many of the suspects were Ingushes, willing to coorporate so the relation with ossetian authorities may have played a part. There are pictures of Basayev preparing the beslan siege though, so it's indisputable that it was his idea. - PietervHuis (talk) 00:23, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, these are "pictures of Basayev camping in some wood wearing his favourite "Anti-Terror" T-shirt (along with long-haired guy with censored eyes and another one in camoflage mask)". --84.234.60.154 (talk) 21:54, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

kavkazcenter censored the picture but I found some uncensored ones. I believe one was clearly inside the school. Also those woods looked exactly the same as where Kulayev guided the investigators, seen in the bbc's documentary. on top of that one of the terrorists had his note in his pocket. - PietervHuis (talk) 22:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

splitting to <100kb

How about moving "International response" to the new article? --84.234.60.154 (talk) 21:51, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

"Hostage takers" may be easily split, too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.234.60.154 (talk) 22:04, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

"Motives and demands" may be split too, if needed (but this one is pretty important). --84.234.60.154 (talk) 22:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I always prefer one big page but I'm silly. Also since I think I know who you are, help out building the chechen war insurgency section again. - PietervHuis (talk) 22:34, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I moved stuff to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_government_censorship_of_Chechnya_coverage#Beslan_hostage_crisis

So, it's reverted now? Oh well. I tried. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 00:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Article should be under 100kb, I guess. "International response" is absolutely not essentional (basically everyone in the world said they're really really sorry and did nothing) and may be moved with keeping the first paragraph only. These other two can be snipped too.

Also, the picture from http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/09/08/1094530692366.html mayu be used to illustrate the dead man detonator theory. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.234.60.154 (talk) 23:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Guess one of Basayev's "camping in Ossetia" photos like this one may be used too. I think the copyright holders won't bomb Wikipedia over this use. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 00:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I have two of those images larger and uncensored, but it's more something for his personal page then here, maybe I'll add it soon. - PietervHuis (talk) 01:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

about a "negro"

It's a citation from Andreyev and this was even noted in the German press (Spiegel). http://www.agentura.ru/library/csrc/Beslanlessons.pdf says it "sounded like a racist outburst", and I think should be noted. (It's kind of like a top US official publicily claimed there was "a Chinaman" among the 9/11 hijackers - should he be consored?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.234.60.154 (talk) 23:31, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

No initial shootout?

I'm reading through http://www.peaceinthecaucasus.org/reports/Beslan.pdf right now. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 02:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you've read it before, but here's[27] another interview with Basayev, where he sounds more regretful surprisingly, also some interesting stuff about afghanistan. - PietervHuis (talk) 02:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

btw there was a terrorist act after beslan in russia [28] but i dont know if there are other details. - PietervHuis (talk) 03:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

copyedit

plz. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 12:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

when does this go away? - PietervHuis (talk) 20:48, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

When it's done. Especially English grammar tenses should be checked. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 15:36, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

BTW, there was a great documentary on my local television about Kasparov's political actions. He described the nort ost siege and the beslan siege as the reasons why he started campaigning in the first place, describing russia's government as 'murderers'. Maybe there will be a translation up soon. - PietervHuis (talk) 20:59, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Anyone knows who "Hassan" was?

'I grabbed her and then moved to the changing room. Hassan, one of the militants, was in the toilet during the first explosion and, when he came out, he tried to help people to the window to get fresh air. We stayed in the small hall near the gym for 20 minutes until the Spetznaz reached us.'[29] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.234.60.154 (talk) 12:17, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

OK

I think I finished and covered about everything I knew. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 13:16, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Canm we have it nominated to a good/featured article now? --84.234.60.154 (talk) 13:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Um, I guess not. --84.234.60.154 (talk) 10:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)