Talk:Besa (Albanian culture)

Albania Top‑importance

	Besa (Albanian culture) is part of the WikiProject Albania, an attempt to co-ordinate articles relating to Albania on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page so as to become familiar with the guidelines. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.AlbaniaWikipedia:WikiProject AlbaniaTemplate:WikiProject AlbaniaAlbania articles
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.

Jewish history High‑importance

	Judaism portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Jewish history, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Jewish history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Jewish historyWikipedia:WikiProject Jewish historyTemplate:WikiProject Jewish historyJewish history-related articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Anthropology: Oral tradition

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Anthropology, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Anthropology on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.AnthropologyWikipedia:WikiProject AnthropologyTemplate:WikiProject AnthropologyAnthropology articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
	This article is supported by Oral tradition taskforce.

A fact from Besa (Albanian culture) appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 15 November 2009 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that because of the Albanian Muslim concept of Besa, Albanians saved about 2000 Jews from the Holocaust during World War II?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2009/November.

Wikipedia

"Denmark and Albania are the only countries conquered by the Nazis that actively refused to cooperate with them"

Here's my reasons to take the sentence out:

Bulgaria remained an independent country during WWII and it was part of the Axis between 1941 and 1944. It didn't turn its Jews over to the Nazis and didn't send any troops to assist the Nazi war effort in the east, but otherwise co-operated. Was Bulgaria a "conquered country"?
What does 'conquered' mean and what is a 'country'? In World War II, Albania was part of the Italian Empire (it was not occupied by the Nazis like Denmark). Was it a country if it was not independent?
Moreover, Denmark did not "actively refuse to cooperate". Denmark's pre-invasion institutions remained active in the protectorate and co-operated with the Nazis to a great extent (read Occupation of Denmark).

As I hope you can see now, the sentence that you insist on including is wrong on multiple levels. It just doesn't seem right to make any comparisons to Denmark (or even Bulgaria). Todor →Bozhinov 13:18, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't you just add Bulgaria to it with a ref rather than remove the sentence? It can be reworded perhaps but I think it's an important point to mention. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:22, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV

I didn't want to start tagging the article since it is on the DYK list but it does have some neutrality issues. Apart from the concerns above the following statement is troublesome.

Albanians are noted for their lack of religious hatred.

The statement is sourced but it is still a troublesome statement. The problem with statements like this is that they are not quantitative and are, therefore, inherently subjective. If the statement is not saying something that is to grandiose then making the statement with a source is ok. But things like this are problematic. It is better to put in a quote of some famous person or author. That way you are not asserting anything yourself. For this specific statement something like the following might be preferable.

The U.S. ambassador to Albania once wrote in 1934,

“

... there is no trace of any discrimination against Jews in Albania, because Albania happens to be one of the rare lands in Europe today where religious prejudice and hate do not exist, even though Albanians themselves are divided into three faiths.^[1]

”

— Herman Bernstein, U.S. Ambassador to Albania

Also be very careful about using sources such as Yad Vashem. Such sources are generally viewed as activistic and would not be considered neutral enough to be a good source for topics such as this.

--Mcorazao (talk) 23:26, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't object to the first one you mention being removed but since the other one is a sourced quote maybe we could find another source. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:38, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Pettifer, James Nazarko, Mentor (2007). Strengthening Religious Tolerance for a Secure Civil Society in Albania and the Southern Balkans. IOS Press. p. 101. ISBN 978-1-58603-779-6.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

Off my list

I am taking this off my watch list. I have no further interest in this article. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:12, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Besa and religion

Besa has not a religious background, and not Muslim. It's written in the Kanun of Leke Dukagjini.--Albopedian (talk) 20:32, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article is a trainwreck.

Nothing in the introduction or "history" section has a citation. There is extreme bias in all of the claims regarding the origin of besa and the importance of besa. Also, the Albanian words for "Albania" and "Albanian" keep being used, as do phrases like "people of the Eagle". It's extremely weird, especially since there is nothing in the article that explain these terms.

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Besa (Albanian culture). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110614015354/http://www.albanian.com/v4/showthread.php?t=26005 to http://www.albanian.com/v4/showthread.php?t=26005

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:02, 31 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Besa (Albanian culture). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20110724100437/http://www.thejewishchronicle.net/pages/full_story/push?article--Besa-Albanian+Muslims+took+vow+to+save+Jews-+photographer+says%20&id=1796256--Besa-Albanian+Muslims+took+vow+to+save+Jews-+photographer+says to http://www.thejewishchronicle.net/pages/full_story/push?article--Besa-Albanian+Muslims+took+vow+to+save+Jews-+photographer+says%20&id=1796256--Besa-Albanian+Muslims+took+vow+to+save+Jews-+photographer+says

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 08:31, 21 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Pettifer, James Nazarko, Mentor (2007). Strengthening Religious Tolerance for a Secure Civil Society in Albania and the Southern Balkans. IOS Press. p. 101. ISBN 978-1-58603-779-6.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)

[1]