Talk:Bertran de Born

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This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 02:33, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Was Bertran de Bòrn really French?

Hi, I just wanted to make sure this region was under French rule when Bertran de Bòrn was born (or lived). If he were under English rule would that make him English? I mean what's for sure is that he was Occitan and that should be enough since the other possible nationalities would be somewhat biased in my opinion... Sincerely/Coralament, Capsot (talk) 17:25, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The first line of the article says that he was from Limousin in France (it is in France, it's not in England!) and was an Occitan troubadour. Seems OK to me. Is there some problem later in the article? Quote it.

Questions about whether someone in the medieval past belonged to some modern ethnicity give endless fun to nationalists, but are not easy to answer reliably. All depends on definitions. I don't claim him as English, anyway! Andrew Dalby 20:31, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He was Limougeot, not French and from Aquitaine, not France. The meaning of France in the 12th c. was only, what is today called Ile-de-France. It would be about the same to call Welsh people or Scottish people "English". Other thing : I added the Occitan form Autafòrt, what seems to me logical for somebody who wrote in Occitan language. Nortmannus (talk) 22:14, 17 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Cephalophore?

Why is Bertran de Born in the category "Cephalophores"? That category's page says it is for saints who are depicted carrying their own heads, usually because they were executed by beheading. Bertran de Born is not a saint and we don't even know how he died. I cannot find any mention in the article of him being depicted carrying his own head for any other reason.

I'm not an expert in this field and it's quite possible that I'm missing something, so I'm posting here in case anyone can explain. 98.194.6.70 (talk) 22:01, 3 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Easy to explain ... Hadn't seen this category before, but the justification is visual, in Doré's illustration of Dante, in which Bertran, in Hell, is depicted carrying his own head. A cephalophore etymologically doesn't have to be a saint, so on the basis of Dante and Doré, two reliable sources, Bertran in the afterlife can be described as a cephalophore. The most helpful solution, from the point of view of cephalophore-counters, would be to remove the restriction "saint" from the definition on the category page. But there is room for doubt whether such a category is really useful :) Andrew Dalby 12:20, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]