Talk:Berkshire/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Berkshire. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Education section

this page needs a section on education. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.222.244.121 (talk) 20:11, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:EH icon.png

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

status

It is surely not a non-metropolitan county but just a ceremonial one. The map of English counties rightly shows unitary authorities as separate from counties, but it is misleading in the way it shows Berkshire as though it were an administrative unit like West Sussex. The area should be shown as several unitaries.

IN REPLY TO THE ABOVE UNSIGNED COMMENT:- Berkshire is the only non-metropolitan county that still exists for administrative purposes, despite not actually having any administrative function. All the others were done differently. There does not, for example, exist any such administrative county called "Cheshire". There is on the other hand an administrative entity called "the County of Blackburn and Darwen".So on a map of counties, you would show the unitary authority of Blackburn and Darwen as a county, but you would not show the districts of Berkshire as a county. 80.47.73.137 (talk) 08:42, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Home County

I have removed referenced to Berkshire as a home county. Home county status is held by those counties, under pre-1974 boundaries, that had a border with London. As Buckinghamshire and Surrey cut off Berkshire from london in the Iver/Slough/Runnymede area, it is not a home county —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.70.77 (talk) 23:04, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I have restored that reference because Berkshire is a home county anyway- check the map here from 1921. I suppose they were so close that Berkshire could be considered one. Then have a border nowadays anyway (due Berkshire stealing bits of Bucks and Surrey!) <Oliver Fury, Esq. message • [[Special:Contributions/OllieFury|contributions] 23:39, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

County Council Moto?

I find it hard to reconcile the following:

Motto of County Council: Dieu et mon droit  [Appears in sidebar]

There is no county council [2nd paragraph]

The Stumo (talk) 12:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

New images

I uploaded some new historical map images by Wenceslas Hollar of Berkshire. I put the more colorful one on the page, feel free to remove it, or to use either or both images. Dcoetzee 10:39, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Ceremonial county - main towns in Wokingham UA

Although I have been among those reverting, I have some sympathy with the anonymous editor(s?) who think that the 'main towns' for Wokingham UA should include East Reading or Earley. Could someone with access to reliable maps try to find references one way or the other please? My recollection (without paper access and without much time just now) is that much of the population of Wokingham UA lies within the Reading conurbation. If I'm right on this, then it seems reasonable for the Wokingham UA summary in this article to point it out. But if I'm wrong, then maybe we need to mention the point as I'm obviously not the only person with the misconception!

Thanks Grblundell (talk) 14:28, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

The best I could find are the interactive maps on the Wokingham council website [1], not particularly clear and a bit tricky to use. Earley is definitely inside Wokingham UA, as is Winnersh. If you zoom in you can see the actual boundary with Reading, it does actually go pretty near to Reading town centre - but there is no such thing as 'East Reading' as far as I am aware...

As to which towns are listed in the table, one of the problems is that there is not enough room for more than two or three without reformatting it. I changed Earley back to Twyford in that I would view that as a more significant town - and Earley is rather more like an urban sprawl of Reading.. In any case if you are going to include it, you really must include Winersh and Woodley which are extensions of that same sprawl, so where do you stop? And by the way, Crowthorne is part of Bracknell, it is a little confusing on that map.

I have the OS map for Bracknell/Windsor (I live in Bracknell) not the adjacent one for Wokingham, but I am not sure how helpful the paper maps are, the boundary Wokingham/Bracknell on my copy is very hard to follow, so the council maps are probably better. Dsergeant (talk) 18:21, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

I suggest you have a look at the Election Maps website [2]. If you type "Wokingham" in the search box and check the "local authority" button you will be able to zoom in and out and add and remove the various boundaries via the "Show Layers" tab. Lozleader (talk) 18:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation

The phonetic representations suggest that the final R is pronounced, yet is this a rhotic area?

In Wikipedia, the phonetic spelling is often a reference to the General American dialect, with final "r" pronounced. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.149.124.220 (talk) 17:17, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

In southern BrE, neither R is pronounced. It seems weird to pronounce the name of an English county (or ex-county) in AmE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.54.207.205 (talk) 14:46, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

It's not AmE. See WP:DIAPHONEMIC and Help:IPA/English#Dialect variation. Nardog (talk) 18:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

I just listened to the recording of someone pronouncing the county's name and it's correctly non-rhotic. There are thus no R-sounds in it, making the recording and the IPA inconsistent with each other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:59C5:6700:11C0:A4FC:EC2E:2C9C (talk) 12:36, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

Not really. The transcription is phonemic, not phonetic. It's accurate as is, though perhaps confusing/misleading to readers who aren't attuned to the difference.Barefoot through the chollas (talk) 14:27, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

File:Flag of Berkshire.jpg

There is an image of the flag of Berkshire on commons ( see File:Flag of Berkshire.jpg). I'll add it when I get time, if anyone wishes to verify its accuracy and add it in the meantime, feel free. Mtaylor848 (talk) 16:39, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Please don't add it. As it says on the description page it is a "proposed" flag. In fact it appears to be just what one individual thinks looks nice, and has no official status. He seems to have been campaigning, without success, to have the flag gain some sort recognition.[3]

There was a discussion on the Flags of the World Website about it [4]. I notice that we already have an article Flag of Berkshire which probably qualifies for deletion. Notably the campaign's website no longer exists.

also if you try to but a "Berkshire Flag" you will get a completely different (and similarly unofficial and unrecognised) design [5] [6] Lozleader (talk) 17:43, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be some todo with it anyway with its uploader commons user:Williwaw. I'll leave it for now and see if anything comes up. I'm not sure as to whether Berkshire has a flag or crest, few Southern counties seem to (Kent and Dorset being the exceptions, however I've never seen them flying). Northern and Midland counties like Yorkshire, Lancashire, Derbyshire, Lincolshire and Northumberland (particularly Northumberland) seem to recognise their flags much more. Regards, Mtaylor848 (talk) 18:03, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I came accross a coat of arms for Berkshire here: http://www.berkshirehistory.com/odds/arms.html ,described as "The coat of arms of Berkshire were granted on 18th July 1947 and the supporters on 7th April 1961", but I am not sure about the copyright issues of reproducing it? Pahazzard (talk) 21:43, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

They are the arms of the county council that was abolished in 1974 (not the 1988 incarnation), and the image is copyrighted per the notice on the pageLozleader (talk) 22:33, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Non-metropolitan county

The article states that Berkshire was the only county to function in such a manner until the recent changes of 2009 when it was joined by Bedfordshire and Cheshire. This is not totally correct. Bedfordshire and Cheshire were abolished as non-metropolitan counties, and each unitary authority became a new non-metropolitan county, like most other unitary authorities. Berkshire, however, is still a non-metropolitan county. It's districts are totally unique among non-metropolitan areas of England (of course, it is very similar to the metropolitan areas).

Bedfordshire and Cheshire are unique in a different way, that they are ceremonial counties which don't have a non-metropolitan or metropolitan county of the same name. Yamor2 (talk) 10:08, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, I'm going to edit it... Yamor2 (talk) 15:32, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

It surely doesn't exist, having been replaced by unitaries, none of them a county. It'd be better to begin the article "Berkshire was ...". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pfedanon (talk • contribs) 15:02, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Berkshire County Council

I was looking to include a section on Berkshire County Council as it seems to have practically no history on the internet. There is this site here: http://www.berkshirerecordoffice.org.uk/albums/berkshire-county-council-portraits/ which has some information, but you could be forgiven for thinking that it never existed.

I know that it had several, almost famous chairmen (including William Mount - 1st chairman and great-great-grandfather of David Cameron) and also that the council lasted from 1889 - 1998.

There were also at least two other chairmen - James Benyon 1916-1926 and my own grandfather - William Antony Wiseman 1990-1993 (source: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/letters/3570873/Debate-protects-the-public.html).

Anyhow, last bit of info to throw in is that one of the reasons for closure (according to a former Bucks County Council chairman) was that they had literally contracted everything out and so were defunct. However being politics I'm sure there's more to it as, for one, why was it the only council that was abolished? Was it anything to do with the rise of New Labour?

If we could have a new section/ article on the subject, I think it would do much to explain an interesting part of Berkshire history, and may also help this gentleman with his desires: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/12910

P.S. I love the main article - one of the best ones I've read.

P.P.S. Just realised something else on this thread from 'The Stumo' - that its motto was Dieu et mon droit. Not the greatest of mottos, but it is what it is... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Magic Lemur (talk • contribs) 22:09, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

No the county council didn't use a motto (that's why there isn't one displayed on their coat of arms)[7] [8]. Local authorities are free to choose any motto they choose EXCEPT those of orders and knighthood or the sovereign. Dieu et Mon Droit is the royal motto, not sure where the idea that it was associated with Berkshire comes from, but it has no basis in fact.

Perhaps (the two incarnations of) Berkshire County Council deserve an article. Sadly (?) the petition is closed with 3 signatures! Lozleader (talk) 22:50, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Lozleader. In terms of the motto, it came from an earlier erroneous post by the Stumo.

And despite the lack of popularity of the petition (there are nearly 10,000 active ones at time of writing, listed by number of signatures, rather than relevance or appeal), Berkshire County Council definitely deserves an article.

After all, if Berkshire doesn't deserve one, then why should the shorter-lived Greater Manchester County Council (1974- 1986)?

I note this comes under the remit of Wikipedia:WikiProject Greater Manchester (of which you are a member) and is also a fairly long and detailed entry at 1500 words.

Magic Lemur (talk) 00:52, 03 December 2011 (UTC)

Well why not? I did a little search in the Times Digital Archive and there are a few things that could merit inclusion. Might start a sandbox somewhere... Lozleader (talk) 12:04, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

That'd be great - thanks. Let me know when there's a link and I will duly contribute some more details (subject to approval, of course). Btw, like the work you've done on Heraldry - is first class stuff...

Magic Lemur (talk) 18:47, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Referents?

< The ceremonial county has the same boundaries as the former administrative county, but historically the county was not co-terminous with this >

In the subordinate clause, what do 'the county' and 'this' refer to? 86.176.194.183 (talk) 05:26, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Please remove the flag

Could someone please remove the flag from the article, please? Berkshire has no flag. The flag on the article means absolutely nothing to people and organisations from Berkshire. It is just some person's creation. There have never been nor are there any plans, or whatever, for giving Berkshire a flag. At the moment someone putting 'Berkshire' into Wikipedia is led to believe the complete opposite. At least put 'A resident's proposal' under the thing. Thank you. --- A resident of Berkshire (I hope I haven't broken anything by writing this - sorry if I have! Never done this before, LOL.) 81.107.76.225 (talk) 17:56, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

I did it! First time editing on Wikipedia. Apologies if I broke something! I don't think I did. Was, well, easy! Keep up the great work everyone. (Sorry if I've incorrectly replied [to myself].) 81.107.76.225 (talk) 18:02, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

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Flag of the Historic County

The Berkshire page currently has an image of the Flag of Berkshire in the infobox. It might be confusing to viewers of the page, because this county flag represents the Historic County. Hence, the current image of the map of 'Berkshire' (ceremonial) is not the area which is represented by the county flag, appearing directly above. Would other Wikipedians think it is appropriate to put an additional image option of the Historic County map, as this page is for the Historic county and Ceremonial county. The map of the historic county is used for pages such as Yorkshire, already. Acapital (talk) 03:53, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

The problem with adding a map of the historic boundaries. Firstly, they serve no official purpose. It is debatable as to whether they still exist. Leaving aside that question, secondly they are ambiguous. They changed many times between the Anglo-Saxons and 1974. Does they include Caversham, which was transferred from Oxfordshire in 1911? Does they include the whole of Wokingham, which was partly in Wiltshire until the late 19th century? When the flag says it represents the "historic county", is it definitely representing an archaic definition, as opposed to "a county that's really old"? If so, perhaps either add a note next to the caption, or not bother showing it altogether. Anywikiuser (talk) 17:02, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Acapital about the flag. Anywikiuser, the debate about the current existence of the HCs has been done to death and is no longer worth debating. HCs changed 'many times' since the Anglo-Saxons? Some minor changes between roughly 1820 and 1974 (eg exclaves) that might be worthy of debating because they are not always just local govt related, but that is about all. In any case, it does not matter, because this article is about the Ceremonial County, a distinct entity from the HC. I have reverted your change on the main page. I think it is a POV not backed by the source. It might be worth re-arranging it as an addition to the article, not as a change.Roger 8 Roger (talk) 17:50, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Anywikiuser To reply to your comments: There are official government publications even from the 2010's, that confirm the current existence of the Historic counties. Why else would there be other Wikipedia pages that make reference to historic counties? E.g. Yorkshire, and furthermore, administrational pages that state the ceremonial county, as well as the historic county.

Secondly, if as you say, they serve "no official purpose", then a lot of Wikipedia pages would be useless too. This should be encyclopaedia-material, documenting things that exist. Historic counties continue to form part of local communities. Acapital (talk) 18:24, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

The difference is that Yorkshire and Sussex were divided for the purposes of local government, whereas Berkshire was altered. So this article should be centred on the modern definition of Berkshire, while also acknowledging and covering previous definitions. There's a plausible argument that older definitions still exist, and Wikipedia's policy is to avoid contradicting it. Going back to the subject of the flag, is there a way to add a note to the flag caption? Otherwise, the only suggestion I have is to move it out of the infobox. Anywikiuser (talk) 10:01, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for not edit warring. I have seen the flag in another county article, (can't remember which), moved from the infobox down to the history section where the HC was discussed. Not ideal, but it did seem to overcome the problem of linking it to the CC. My personal view is that I would not lose sleep if these recent county flags were not used, or put somewhere lower down. They are too recent. Exceptions will be there, such a the red and white roses, and the white horse of Kent. I cannot follow your reasoning for the rest of your post. You still seem to be insisting that the CC is a changed version of the HC. Where is your evidence that the 1974 Act created different local body units depending on whether the units had one word (eg Berkshire) or two words (East Sussex). Also, please provide evidence that the HCs were altered in any way by the 1974 Act. Your comment seems to by pure uncited opinion. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 10:42, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

The administrative and ceremonial boundaries of Berkshire did get changed though. Before then Berkshire County Council and the Lord Lieutenant of Berkshire represented one area, whereas after that they both represented a different area. Some argue that there's a historical or cultural region of Berkshire that could never be changed or abolished by local government reforms. I can accept wording that allows room for those opinions. Anywikiuser (talk) 13:30, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Roger 8 Roger on this. The historic counties were very clearly not altered by the local government reforms of the 1970's, as has been stated on numerous occasions by the government themselves.

Anywikiuser You're completely missing the point here. I have no disagreement with the fact that the administrational boundaries of Berkshire were changed in the 1970's. The issue is that there are clear definitions to differentiate between Historic/traditional/ancient counties and the areas for the purposes of local government (The local Government Act 1972), the metropolitan and non-metropolitan counties. And there is another separate definition of Ceremonial counties. These are all different definitions of counties.

The fact is that historic county flags are to represent historic counties. Therefore, a page that is for the ceremonial county should not really display the historic county flag, because it doesn't even represent that entity. The Yorkshire page seems acceptable, because it currently uses the historic county flag, but the information in the text clearly acknowledges the current existence of the historic county, and the map in the infobox is for the historic boundaries. Therefore, there is no confusion or conflict of information.

Whereas on the Berkshire page, the historic county flag is used in the infobox, together with a map of the ceremonial county boundaries. These are not the same, and hence there is inaccuracy of information. Acapital (talk) 14:13, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Anywikiuser And I agree with your suggestions made in the comment above, to either add a caption to the flag, or to remove the flag from the page. If this is the action to be taken, then the same must be applied to all the county pages on Wikipedia, to ensure consistency of information. Acapital (talk) 14:17, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Are you sure that the flag specifically represents the old boundaries of Berkshire? I've looked up the references on the Flag of Berkshire article. The relevant pages on the Flag Institute website are here and here. It only says it is the flag of "Berkshire". Anywikiuser (talk) 14:53, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Anywikiuser Thanks for your reply. The 2013 guidance document for making and registering a flag is on the Flag Institute's website, and it makes reference to historic counties being one of the three eligible things to have a registered flag. Acapital (talk) 15:37, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

As a follow on from my last entry, this reference can be used to access the guidance for the flags:

Flag Institute. Creating Local & Community Flags. Available: https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/british-flags/creating-local-and-community-flags/. Last accessed 21/2/18. ^[1] Acapital (talk) 15:43, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

The template doesn't currently seem to allow this, but the best way would be to attach a citation saying "The Flag of Berkshire was registered in March 2017 to represent the historic county of Berkshire." It would be a shame to remove it from the infobox. Anywikiuser (talk) 15:57, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

I have been involved in many productive discussions like this at various county sites, but those discussions always end there. I have also commented at the Geography of England/How to treat counties site, where the guidelines on what to say in articles was drawn up. But again, debate is isolated.Roger 8 Roger (talk) 19:00, 21 February 2018 (UTC) A disappointment to me is that these discussions are never linked. There is an unquestionable need for a wide ranging, general debate and reform of the current approach to HCs, one that is not happening. Does anyone have the knowledge, ability, and time, to arrange this - a request for a change in WP's approach to the handling of "County"? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 19:00, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more, the discussions need to be linked and a reform of the Historic County approach on Wikipedia is necessary. It's very misleading to see all these county flags being put onto county pages, which primarily refer to ceremonial counties (e.g. in the Infobox maps). Acapital (talk) 00:16, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

References

^ Flag Institute. Creating Local & Community Flags. Available: https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/british-flags/creating-local-and-community-flags/. Last accessed 21/2/18.

a non-metropolitan county without a county council

I can see how you can have a ceremonial county without a council, but the above us surely impossible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.228.205 (talk) 13:11, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Berkshire is an anomaly. When other counties like Bedfordshire had their county council abolished, the unitary authorities they split into were designated as non-metropolitan counties. When Berkshire had its county council abolished much earlier, it was still designated as a non-metropolitan county. Anywikiuser (talk) 13:12, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
If Berkshire CC was abolished, what was it that was designated a non-met county? You surely can't designate something as anything if it doesn't exist. I'm not talking about ceremonial counties. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pfedanon (talk • contribs) 14:59, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Catherine Elizabeth Middleton (colorized).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:37, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Proposed changes to dealing with UK counties

If anyone is interested, please see here [9]. Comments welcome. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 19:19, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

Past and present boundaries

Wikipedia:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about counties gives clear guidelines: "a fundamental part of this guide is to reaffirm the long established position that we do not take the view that the historic/ancient/traditional counties still exist with the former boundaries." You obviously disagree with this policy, so thank you for taking this to the talk page. But unless you succeed in getting the backing needed to change the guidelines, the article should reflect that advice. Anywikiuser (talk) 10:08, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

non-metropolitan county without a county council

It surely isn't a county, then. Sure, it's a ceremonial, but not a real one. This applies however much one may lament local government reorganisation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:59C5:6700:11C0:A4FC:EC2E:2C9C (talk) 12:34, 6 July 2022 (UTC)

[1] Flag Institute. Creating Local & Community Flags. Available: https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/british-flags/creating-local-and-community-flags/. Last accessed 21/2/18.

[1]