Talk:Berenice II of Egypt

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WikiProject Ancient Egypt to-do list:

Needed articles.

We should have an article on every pyramid and every nome in Ancient Egypt. I'm sure the rest of us can think of other articles we should have.

Cleanup.

To start with, most of the general history articles badly need attention. And I'm told that at least some of the dynasty articles need work. Any other candidates?

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Stub sorting

Anyone? I consider this probably the most unimportant of tasks on Wikipedia, but if you believe it needs to be done . . .

Data sorting.

This is a project I'd like to take on some day, & could be applied to more of Wikipedia than just Ancient Egypt. Take one of the standard authorities of history or culture -- Herotodus, the Elder Pliny, the writings of Breasted or Kenneth Kitchen, & see if you can't smoothly merge quotations or information into relevant articles. Probably a good exercise for someone who owns one of those impressive texts, yet can't get access to a research library.

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Date confusion?

In about 249 BC, she was married to Demetrius the Fair, a Macedonian prince, soon after her father died. However after coming to Cyrene he became the lover of her mother Apama. In a dramatic event, she had him killed in Apama's bedroom, but Apama lived on afterwards. This happened around 255 or 250 BC. She had no children with Demetrius.

Since dates B.C. count backwards, how was it that she married Demetrius in 249, but murdered him in 250 or 255 (either one or six years earlier)? 69.42.7.212 (talk) 18:14, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ruling queen of Cyrene?

Wasn't she actually regent and ruling queen of Cyrene after her father's death? Shouldn't she be placed in a succession-box of the monarchs of Cyrene? This has been neglected. --Aciram (talk) 23:24, 27 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved.(non-admin closure) Calidum Sistere 04:34, 27 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Berenice II → Berenice II of Egypt – All the other Berenices are "of Egypt". What's different about this one? 216.8.129.17 (talk) 15:33, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

Support Actually they're not all "of Egypt", but precisely because of that I support. PatGallacher (talk) 00:13, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Berenice I of Egypt
- Berenice III of Egypt
- Berenice IV of Egypt
- What am I missing? 216.8.164.187 (talk) 11:32, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - Pat probably means we need to disambiguate these Egyptian queens from Berenice (Seleucid queen), and other such-named figures of the Hellenistic kingdoms. Dimadick (talk) 12:07, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support For consistency reasons. Dimadick (talk) 12:08, 25 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Hyginos/Confusing different Berenices???

The 2nd paragraph of the "Life" section reads:

The astronomer Gaius Julius Hyginus claims that when Berenice's father Magas and his troops were routed in battle, Berenice mounted a horse, rallied the remaining forces, killed many of the enemy, and drove the rest to retreat.[8] The veracity of this story is unclear and the battle in question is not otherwise attested, but "it is not on the face of it impossible."[9]

I found the actual text cited by [8] ("Gaius Julius Hyginus De Astronomica 2.24") at https://topostext.org/work/207, and it reads:

§ 2.24.1 LION: He is said to have been put among the stars because he is considered the king of beasts. Some writers add that Hercules' first Labor was with him and that he killed him, unarmed. Pisandrus and many others have written about this. Above his likeness in the sky nearest the Virgin are seven other stars near his tail, arranged in a triangle, which Conon, the mathematician, and Callimachus call the Lock of Berenice. When Ptolemy had married his sister Berenice, daughter of Ptolemy and Arsinoe, and after a few days had set out to attack Asia, Berenice vowed that if Ptolemy returned as victor she would clip off her hair. She placed the lock, consecrated by this vow, in the temple of Venus Arsinoe Zephyritis, but on the following day it couldn't be seen there. When the king was distressed by this, Conon the mathematician, whom we mentioned above, desiring to win the favor of the king, said that he had seen the lock among the constellations, and pointed out seven stars without definite configuration which he imagined were the lock.
Event Date: -1000 LA

[I wonder where 2.24.2 went.]

§ 2.24.3 Some authors along with Callimachus have said that this Berenice raised horses, and used to send them to Olympia. Others add that once Ptolemy, Berenice's father, in panic at the number of the enemy, had sought safety in flight, but his daughter, an accomplished horse woman, leaped on a horse, organized the remaining troops, killed many of the enemy, and put the rest to flight. For this even Callimachus calls her high-souled. Eratosthenes says that she ordered returned to the girls of Lesbos the dowry left to them by their parents, which on one had released, and she established among them right to bring action of recovery.
Event Date: -1000 LA

Hyginos does mention Berenice cutting her hair off, which is mentioned in this Wikipedia article, but the familial details look completely different from what this article says. Hyginos says her father was a Ptolemy, not a Magas, that her mother was an Arsinoe, not an Apama, and her husband, though still a Ptolemy, was her brother, not her cousin. Ptolemy and Arsinoe are the parents of Ptolemy III Euergetes of Egypt (Berenice II Euergetis of Egypt's husband according to this Wikipedia article), so that part can be explained if Hyginos just meant "father-in-law" and "mother-in-law". However, this doesn't explain why Bernice is supposedly her husband Ptolemy's sister. Ptolemy and Arsinoe are also the parents of a "Bernice Syra"/Phernophorus", though, who thus actually IS Ptolemy III's sister. On the other hand, Wikipedia says Bernice Syra married Antiochus II Theos of the Seleucid Empire, not Ptolemy III of Egypt, though bizarrely it does list Ptolemy III Euergetes as her "successor" for the role of "Seleucid Queen".

Given how much these people reuse names I wouldn't be surprised if there are other possible people this Berenice could be. Also, if we suppose (for the sake of finding away this article could agree with Hyginos) that only the Berenice in 2.24.3 is Bernice II Euergetis of Egypt, then the "father-in-law" explanation is all that is necessary, so there isn't NECESSARILY an inconsistency here. For a further stretch, I don't know if these people had other names Wikipedia doesn't mention, or if the word Topostext translates as "sister" could actually mean "cousin" or "wife" somehow.DubleH (talk) 18:15, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for this. On the genealogy: Berenice was presented in Ptolemaic inscriptions as the sister of her husband, although she actually wasn't (see https://instonebrewer.com/TyndaleSites/Egypt/ptolemies/berenice_ii_fr.htm note "[2]") and Hyginos repeats this; misnaming her father also in the story about riding a horse into battle. I've updated the article text to avoid stating that Hyginos claims something that he doesn't.

The story about the haircut is clearly connected with this Berenice by contemporary sources (notably Callimachus), and that identification is not doubted in secondary sources. Furius (talk) 22:49, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]