Jump to content

Talk:Bender, Moldova/Archive 2

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1Archive 2

Naming Conventions

According to the Romanization convention, we should use the conventional English definition used in traditional dictionaries. I just ran it through Britannica and it came up Tighina. So, there is precedent to use Tighina. Geoff Plourde (talk) 16:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Moldovan is written in Latin alphabet, so Romanization conventions don't apply here.Xasha (talk) 22:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
Then why does bender have to be translated into English? The policy would seem to say to use Tighina as that is the conventional English name. Geoff Plourde (talk) 20:33, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Bender is originally Turkish. It is actually Бендеры, that is the transliteration (I assume you meant that instead of "translation"). Now, Tighina was at first written in (old) Cyrillic and later transliterated into the Latin script. But this happened so long ago, that the Romanization rules no longer apply, I think. --Illythr (talk) 00:15, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Feed this into Britannica and you get Tighina. Tighina would appear to be the conventional name. Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Britannica has extremely outdated and incomplete data about Bender (1991 population data. Use of non-standard, Romanian spelling of â. No information about the conflict in Transnistria, where Bender was witness to one of the most important battles. No update whatsoever to the article in (at least) the last 6 years). Moreover, it has been shown that in several articles it uses the formulation "now/modern Bendery, Moldova", with no mention of "Tighina".Xasha (talk) 20:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
The point is that Tighina appears to be the conventional English name. Bender or Bendery has to be translated out from a Cyrillic language. Geoff Plourde (talk) 16:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Bender does not have to be translated from a Cyrillic language, being originally Turkish. It's the other way around.
Per Vecrumba's bit o Googling up there, the "conventional name" point is rather moot.
A Google books search confirms Peters' findings, and shows that the most English language books use "Bendery" (Bendery Moldova = 226 hits), followed by "Bender" (Bender Moldova = 192 hits) and trailed by "Tighina" (Tighina Moldova = 146 hits).
Still, several (3 so far) major encyclopaediae do use "Tighina", outdated or not.
Basically, this issue has no clear solution (at least I don't see one right now) and has all the potential to drag on indefinitely, until some admin decides it by flipping a coin or something. --Illythr (talk) 16:55, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
If it's going to be Bender-something, Bendery really is the preferred English term (and properly reflects the transliterated from Turkish to Cyrillic "ы"). I'd like to editorially respect both names, but any punctuation you pick comes with its own set of incorrect implications, as in Bendery (Tighina) = Bendery, part of Tighina.
  • Bendery/Tighina?
  • Bendery-Tighina?
  • Computing logic? Bendery|Tighina?
Certainly everyone here has been attempting to smite the Gordian knot. Is there any convention we can agree on which reflects both (and I don't see any huge problem in deviating from "convention" if we all agree...)?
   And a small P.S., most of the texts I've seen on the Transnistrian conflict do refer to Bendery or Bender, not Tighina. Your mileage may vary. :-) —PētersV (talk) 17:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Eh, that "-ы" thingy seems to be a Russian addition to the Turkish "Bender". Say, won't that slash create a subarticle "Tighina"? --Illythr (talk) 18:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I fail to see the merits of this continual discussion. An administrator has decided on a name, and no other unanimous agreement seems possible. All the references brought here didn't help us, because they are too few of them mentioning this town. I think this is again a sign that the town is not known well enough in the English-speaking word to merit an English name. In such cases, policy says use the local name. And I can't see how a double name will help. As a fellow editor told me during my first week on Wikipedia, a redirect quickly solves problems with alternate names. Why sould this be special, and what about the precedent this could set?(just think of Kiev)Xasha (talk) 18:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Kiev and Kyiv have the same origin and are easily recognisable as being the same, so it's not quite analogous. Moreover, the administrator made that decision following an RM that produced no consensus, thus failing to respect process. We should keep this discussion alive until some convincing (that is, based on sources and usage) solution is found. Biruitorul (talk) 18:55, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Yet it produced 10 Wikipedia pages of discussion (that would be enough for a large hard copy booklet) and the subject is still not dead. I hope we don't have to go that way. All the arguments against Bender brought in the "vote" above were objectively dismissed, and the procedure failed only due to votes based on personal feelings. Wikipedia is not a democracy, so if an administrator considered that the move is requisite, he had all the right to do it. (After all he was vested in a position of trust by a far larger number of Wikipedia editors than the one of those who ever contributed to this page).Xasha (talk) 19:10, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
First, you have to provide evidence rather than assertions that oppose votes were based on "personal feelings", or else not make such a claim. Second, per WP:DEAL: "There is very little extra decision-making ability that goes along with adminship, and it does not add any extra voice in consensus decisions." Biruitorul (talk) 17:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
OK, lets go back to the drawing board. I created a thread below on Possible names. Lets add all the ones we can think of. After that we can systematically discuss and eliminate names. Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Name Possibilities

  1. Bender and Bender (disambiguation)--Moldopodo (talk) 15:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
  2. Bender, Moldova Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Totally agree. This is a standard name for a city in a wikipedia article. --serhio talk 08:48, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
  1. Bendery, Moldova Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  2. Bender (Tighina) Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  3. Bender-Tighina Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  4. Tighina Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  5. Bendery
  6. Bendery (Tighina)
    I pulled out Magocsi's Historical Atlas of Central Europe (as current and as seminal work as one can find on that geography and history), and the in the index we have:
    a)   Bendery [Ru] (Bender [T,Y]; Tighina [R])
    b)  Tighina (see Bendery)
    So, order of preference: Bendery (per Russian), Bender (per Turkish and Yiddish), Tighina (per Romanian)
    ...and mathematical notation obviously won't work, since "|" means something special, well duh (!) on that. I numbered the entries to make them easier to reference.—PētersV (talk) 02:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Discussion of Name Possibilities

I noted Magocsi as a (potential) definitive reference. —PētersV (talk) 02:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Perhaps some kind soul can archive some of the prior discussions? :-)

Although I still consider that Bender falls under that category of cities with no established English name, Bendery may be a compromise solution. Xasha (talk) 18:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Bendery

Is this acceptable? Geoff Plourde (talk) 00:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Well... yes. --Illythr (talk) 17:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
My primary editorial choice... —PētersV (talk) 14:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Like I said, personally, and as per evidence above, Bender would be the best solution. However, if the consensus is for Bendery I would not mind, as it does not differ all that much form the official version.--Moldopodo (talk) 15:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

"Tighina" is more often used than "Bender" (as said by User:Olahus)

In the Moldovan webpages written in Romanian (Moldovan) the denomination "Tighina" is more often used than the denomination "Bender".

Click here: http://www.google.ro/advanced_search?hl=ro
than put in the field: conţinând toate cuvintele the searched term (in our case Tighina or Bender)
than choose in the field: Limbă Găsiţi pagini scrise în the Romanian language (Română)
than choose in the field: Regiune Căutare pagini aflate în: the Moldovan Republic (Moldova, Republica)
 and finally press the button Căutare Google
Results: 20.500 pages for Tighina and 20.100 pages for Bender. --Olahus (talk) 18:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant for the discussion. The Romanian minority in Moldova may use whatever name they want, but this doesn't change the law or English language usage.Xasha (talk) 20:38, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Romanian minority? You mean the persons with Romanian nationality, right? In the census results I see only the term "naţionalitate", but never "etnie". So please stop pushing your personal point of view.--Olahus (talk) 16:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
ROFLMAO Xasha (talk) 18:54, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Using fictitious terms like "Romanian minority in Moldova" tends to weaken one's arguments. Biruitorul Talk 16:59, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Well there, are only about 2% of Romanians in moldova, it's certainly not a majority...--Moldopodo (talk) 15:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Not a Romanian majority? You mean the persons with Romanian nationality, right? In the census results I see only the term "naţionalitate", but never "etnie". So please stop pushing your personal point of view.--Olahus (talk) 16:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
2 X ROFLMAO. Xasha (talk) 18:54, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
No, it makes it easier for people to see who's the one living in the real world, where people have the freedom of thought and can freely say what they consider themselves, and who's living in an ethno-racist dream, where he thinks he can dictate on others his opinions based on hitlerite thought.Xasha (talk) 17:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's move it to Tighina. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.4.165.112 (talk) 05:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's not use proxy servers.Xasha (talk) 07:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Let's stay away from the implication that Moldovans are not Romanians, et al. With the Transnistrian conflict and "Bendery" coming to the fore with regard to any awareness in the (English-speaking) West, "Bendery" continues to be the most-used English name for Bendery/Bender/Tighina. Unfortunately, I continue to find myself editorially arguing against my personal preference. When King or Magocsi or similiar put out a new book where Tighina is the primary index entry and they discuss the events in Tighina, not Bendery, then we can objectively support a rename to Tighina. It's the "English exonym" that counts in this case. —PētersV (talk) 14:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Forgive my stupidity, but what exactly is the origin of Moldovan? Which language family is it in? Geoff Plourde (talk) 17:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
You can take a look at Moldovan language and Moldovans. The controversy is described there. --Illythr (talk) 17:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
The controversy is not as much about the difference, but about the term used for the name of the language. Moldova exists since 14th century, just as the language. However in 1871 Romania was created, hence they called the language "Romanian", therefore they invented all the typical Balkan crap about "historical Great Romanian lands, history, culture, etc, etc, etc..."--Moldopodo (talk) 09:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
The language was called "Romanian" since the Romanian ethnogensis, long before the founding of the Moldovan state.--Olahus (talk) 16:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
It very easy to make suppositions when there's no way to prove something.Xasha (talk) 18:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh, come off it. First, 1862, not 1871. Second, Moldavia is not Moldova. Third, terms like "Romanian" and "Romanian language" (which, Geoff, is identical to Romanian), were around long before 1871(!). Of course there are political motivations on either side, but the "Moldovan language" was only created by the Soviets in the 1920s for irredentist purposes (see MASSR). Biruitorul Talk 14:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
So then what is the name of this city in Romanian/Moldovan? Geoff Plourde (talk) 18:20, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
The Moldovan name is the official name, i.e. Bender (quite logical considering Moldovan is de jure the only official language in Bender). The Romanian name for Bender is Tighina.Xasha (talk) 18:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh boy! Do you have a source for this weak-minded comment? --Olahus (talk) 16:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the Moldovan Law. As for the Romanian one, I just suppose it's that one since all Romanians want to move this article to that name.Xasha (talk) 18:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
According to the US Department of State, Moldovan is another name for Romanian. What is the name in Romanian? Also, how many people here are Romanian Geoff Plourde (talk) 21:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
That's not really relevant. Romanian name was given above. About 2% of Moldova's population. According to the census made by the Transnistrian separatist authorities (the ones who de facto control Bender) the Romanian population in Bender is negligible ( See their map, with Romanians included in "other ethnic groups") Xasha (talk) 21:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
That's one side of the story. See Moldovenism for more background. I think the State Department is correct, and expresses a common scholarly view: Moldovans are part of a wider Romanian ethnic group, but in the 2004 census, the great majority declared themselves as Moldovan rather than Romanian, for two reasons: first, Moldovans were taught under half a century of Soviet rule that "Romanian" is a dirty word, associated with fascism; and second, Moldovans do have a distinct regional identity - just like people in various parts of Romania (Transylvanians, Oltenians, etc). Also, the languages are indeed the same in their literary form, but just as with other variants of Romanian, Moldovan people do have a distinct accent when they speak. Now, when the 2% number is tossed about, it only refers to a very technical definition: 2% of Moldovan inhabitants declared themselves Romanian in 2004. But you can't tell apart a Moldovan from a Romanian - the difference is a political one.
Let's try an analogy. Say that at the 1930 US Census, 70% of people from California said they were "American", 20% Mexican and 10% Japanese. Then in 1940, Mexico annexes California, and until 1991, when the independent California Republic is formed, inhabitants are told that America is evil, that they're Californians, and that they speak Californian. Then in 1991 there's talk California might rejoin the US, but LA County is occupied by the Mexican Army and the Republic's government is pro-Mexican, and keeps on telling people they're Californians and speak Californian. So of course by 2004, only 2% of people will identify as Californian, as opposed to 70% in 1930, and 68% will call themselves by the new, purely political designation of Californian. (And yes, this is an analogy and I'm aware there's no "American" ethnicity.) (Also, there's an analogous situation: see Demographic history of Montenegro.)
The situation in Moldova is sort of similar. Not exactly - bits of Bessarabia, the historical region that roughly overlaps Moldova, are now in Ukraine, and the Jews there were mostly either killed or fled during and after WWII, and some Russians and Ukrainians came in during the Soviet period. Nevertheless, 56.2% of people in Bessarabia were Romanian in 1930, and in 2004, 76% were Moldovans and 2% Romanians. Now of course, people can call themselves whatever they please, but we are in fact talking about the same group of people, nearly all of whom happened to adopt a different name. So while technically correct, saying that Moldova is "2% Romanian" rather obscures the issue. Biruitorul Talk 22:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Yet more sophistry from an ethno-rascist (reminiscent of interwar fascists) who can't accept Moldovans don't see themselves as Romanians. It doesn't matter that Moldovan self-identification predates the Soviet Union by at least 3 centuries (and even the notion of "Romanian ethnic"). And not at all that in the 200 years of census history in Bessarabia, the only one which didn't show a Moldovan plurality (actually not one Moldovan), was the one made in 1930 during the illegal Romanian rule. Stalin is the one to blaim for all.Xasha (talk) 22:51, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Xasha, what makes you believe that Moldovans don't see themselves as Romanians? --Olahus (talk) 16:56, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
User Olahus, what makes you blieve that Japanese don't see themselves as Italian?--Moldopodo (talk) 18:05, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Uh, WP:NOTAFORUM? WP:NPA? --Illythr (talk) 23:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Folks, here is a compromise that appears to be supported by policy. Regardless of what the official name is, there is a historical precedent for Tighina. Lets use the name used most frequently by scholars. What is that name? Geoff Plourde (talk) 16:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The most used name ist Tighina. I already prooved this in my edit from the beginnig of the discussion. Let's move it to Tighina. --Olahus (talk) 16:44, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I have carefully examined both sides here and have come to the conclusion that Tighina may be the appropriate term to use. Bender requires the use of a disambig. Also Tighina is used in both the Enyclopedia of World Geography and Encyclopedia Britannica. Geoff Plourde (talk) 21:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Encyclopaedia Britannica also uses Bendery more often that Tighina.Xasha (talk) 18:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Can you futher elaborate on what caused you to switch from this? --Illythr (talk) 21:27, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I am fine with the use of Bendery, if people will agree to it. Let me rephrase, I am simply pointing out that a strong case could be made for Tighina. Geoff Plourde (talk) 23:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The most used name ist Tighina. I already prooved this in my edit from the beginnig of the discussion. Let's move it to Tighina. I don't see any serious argument against my proposal. --Olahus (talk) 13:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
You just have proved that Tighina is the more common name in Romanian. This has nothing to do with English usage.Xasha (talk) 20:24, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
And how do you know that the English usage preffers the denomination Bender?--Olahus (talk) 16:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
Per above, as well as this, the most common name used in English is actually Bendery. --Illythr (talk) 20:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
So, where should be moved the article: to Bendery or to Tighina? --Olahus (talk) 19:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
I would prefer Bender (current name), as official; Bendery as a second choice, as unabiguous and (apparenty) more used, Tighina - third.
SwatJester makes a strong point below, as well. --Illythr (talk) 19:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
So then the consensus would be for Bendery? Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
See above. --Illythr (talk) 20:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposal Mark II

An issue about names has come up before on the Gdansk/Danzig page. Community consensus determined that the article should be named Gdansk, as the current official name. Danzig is used when referring to the period it was in use. As consensus has already been displayed, consensus should be followed. The following is therefore proposed,

  1. To eliminate the disambig problems and recognize the validity of both names, this article would be moved to Bendery (Tighina)
  2. When referring to the current period, Bender or Bendery shall be used.
  3. When referring to the period for which Tighina was the prevalent name, Tighina shall be used.
  4. The lead shall contain all names.
Guys, this is actually better for both sides. It makes sure that people know they are in the right place. Also, in Eastern Europe disputes, people don't expect compromise. Lets prove them wrong. Because even if we are American, Moldovan, Romanian, or Russian, we are all still humans. Geoff Plourde (talk) 00:14, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Following Gdansk consensus, why don't wee leave Bender (official name) and Bender (disambiguation)?--Moldopodo (talk) 18:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Because if we touch the disambig, someone will scream bloody murder, because this entry will gain precedence over all others. The name translates out as either Bender or Bendery. Additionally, some people will be looking for Tighina and may not be aware of the name change. Bendery (Tighina) solves the disambig, shows the precedence of the official name, and acknowledges a popular legacy name. Geoff Plourde (talk) 18:27, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Gdansk is not at Gdansk (Danzig), and this article gives more visibility to "Tighina" than the Gdansk article to "Danzig", this being a concession we made to try to satisfy Romanians. All other proposals are already active now. See above why Bendery (Tighina) is not a valid compromise (I think I've said in 3 time till now.) As for your last argument: come'on... how many people older than 68 use Wikipedia? Even if they do, when they type Tighina they are redirected here.Xasha (talk) 18:33, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Gdansk does not need a disambig. This is a compromise that is meant to be acceptable to everyone. If the consensus is for Bendery, than Bendery it shall be. Either way, this dispute is taking up too much of everyone's time. Geoff Plourde (talk) 21:37, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
When the consensus cannot be reached, then the official version is the best we can have. So let's make it Bender.--Moldopodo (talk) 03:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Is Bender really the official name of the town? --Olahus (talk) 13:31, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, Bender is the official name of the city[1]--Moldopodotalk 15:51, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Wikisource :) Are you 100% sure that Bender is the official name of the city? Or, at least, the exclusive one? Look here in this report of the Moldovan Ministry of Environment and Natural resources, and the city is called Tighina, not Bender: [2]. As you can see, the denomination Tighina is used by governamental institutions. --Olahus (talk) 20:17, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Please, try to make an effort and change the stereotype of Romanian user on Wikipedia in Bonny style who does not care for sources, but fills the blank on all Wikipedia talk pags with useless info, basicly coming from his/her own head and nowhere else. You have to source. And, I for instance, do source. So you have to make it a habit to look for sources. On Wikisource I have provided the exact link to the official governmental legal portal of the Moldova, which is permanently updated (if you see, for this law, they already have modification of April 2008)--Moldopodotalk 20:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Moldopodo, as you can see, I quote too. And I think my edits are very objective. Don't try to make personal offences against me. --Olahus (talk) 21:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
This is the law Moldopodo is referring to, in Moldovan, from the portal of the Moldovan Parliament: [3]. The law clearly refers to Bender, and only to Bender. There's no city/town/village called Tighina in Moldova according to Moldovan law.Xasha (talk) 20:22, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
The link doesn't work.--Olahus (talk) 21:00, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
We can not touch the disambig without initiating a discussion at the talk page of the disambig. Every other article that is named Bender has a valid claim to that space. It translates out as either Bendery or Bender, so then let us use Bendery if consensus is for a Bender variant. We have three options right now. 1. File an RfC and agree to abide by the consensus established. 2. Stop debating and try to establish consensus. 3. Keep on debating.

I think the best option would be to file an RfC, as we seem to be unable to come to consensus. Can we agree to abide by the outcome? Geoff Plourde (talk) 20:50, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I am for starting the discussion at the disambig page.--Moldopodotalk 21:01, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Then start the discussion, as there is no consensus, the status quo must be maintained.

Page protected

Protected due to edit war.

As a side note, The CIA World Factbook lists the city in Moldova as "Bender". Bender is also listed as a municipality on that page. Tighina is not mentioned anywhere on that page.The Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) says Bender. The International Federation of the Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies (IFRC) says Bender. The Council of Europe, European Committee to Prevent Torture lists the city as "Bender" and makes no reference to Tighina. As well AllModolva.com lists it as Bender, having once had the name "tighina" but not since the 16th century. Britannica makes brief mention of both names, on an online article dated 1991. The Tiraspol times uses Bender. Worldfootballtravel.com says Bender. VirtualTourist.com says Bender. I think it's abundantly clear which is the correct name.⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 23:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

So then, we have the correct name. Any valid objections? Geoff Plourde (talk) 23:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, yes:

  • Britannica says "Tighina, also spelled Tigina , formerly called Bendery , Moldavian Bender" (the article name is Tighina) -- that is not "a brief mention of both names", it's a very clear statement (their very choice for the name of the article is a pretty strong statement in itself, especially in the context of... how to name our article).
  • Encarta, same choice for the name of the article.
  • The Columbia Encyclopedia, same choice, same explanation ("Tighina , formerly Bender or Bendery"); additionally, Bendery is a soft redirect to Tighina; and intriguingly, the article on Tighina reads "It was again renamed Tighina after Moldovan independence."

So, who do we trust? --Gutza T T+ 20:50, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Not Britannica and Columbia, as their articles are based on obsolete data (note the formerly's): There was indeed a motion to rename the city in 1991, but it was dropped due to war. This is actually already covered above. Don't know about Encarta. I personally would trust Vecrumba on this one. --Illythr (talk) 21:07, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I follow, what part of "formerly Bendery" are you disputing? Or do you dispute Britannica's information according to which the city is called Bender in Moldova? (On a side note, I wasn't implying we should choose a user to trust, I was just stating the discrepancies between sources.) --Gutza T T+ 21:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Those two say "formerly Bender or Bendery". The underscored part is factually incorrect. When I said I trust Vecrumba, I meant the sources he used in his research (especially since they confirmed my own findings ;-) ).
Plus, the heap of sources above, most notably, the CIA World factbook (dated 2008) and OSCE.
Oh, and there's Bonaparte's vote and the anon vote shopping, which generally highlight the Wrong Way To Do Things On Wikipedia. (I'm only partially kidding here.). :-) --Illythr (talk) 21:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Britannica doesn't say that, please read their article for yourself if you can't trust my copy/paste above. OSCE is not OSCE, it's an article in the OSCE Magazine (not too shabby, I admit, but still, it's not like it's some sort of formal classification by OSCE). The Red Cross also uses Wien for Vienna, should I rename? As for the CIA Factbook, I would have found that convincing if they had included Tighina in some manner to show it's demoted or obsolete (since the term is obviously in use, see above) -- the fact that they make no mention of it proves they simply defaulted to the official name without looking into it much. As for AllMoldova, Tiraspol Times and whatever other local sources, of course they call it Bender since... well, since that's what they call it. I can produce several sources similar to Worldfootballtravel.com and VirtualTourist.com but I don't think those get any weight (that is, unless counting blue links is what matters). --Gutza T T+ 22:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Gutza! Since we haven't had the pleasure of crossing paths before, I just wanted to mention that some time back (but not eons), I was heavily involved in the Transnistrian conflict (actual and Wikipedian), having gotten interested in Moldova and Transnistria (and by extension, Romania) through some rather obscure Latvia-related connections. Over time I amassed an extensive collection of all the best and latest references by arguably the best scholars out there--Bendery is still used as the primary name, "Tighina, see Bendery." I'd rather be on your side of the argument, but there's no case without putting "nationalism/native" ahead of common English usage, which is not the goal. —PētersV (talk) 22:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Marius invited you to "verify a Russian text", because, since you're Latvian, you gotta speak Russian - hehe, that was an amusing moment... :-)

Hello, Vecrumba! I won't deny your motivations or honesty, but, with all courtesy and warmth, simply stating that you have great sources really isn't enough... I honestly don't want to be a moron, I'm trying to phrase this as courteously as I can, but you really need to indicate the sources you're using, best faith assumed. I honestly didn't come here with an agenda (and I actually ended up on this page by accident), but I simply did a search on Google and found three encyclopedias indicating Tighina. --Gutza T T+ 22:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I do believe Peters already mentioned Magocsi and Charles King here... --Illythr (talk) 23:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, my bad. --Gutza T T+ 23:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Consensus for Bendery

I believe that consensus exists to move this to Bendery. This appears to be the easiest one to implement. Also, Google Maps translates it as Bendery. Should I have Swatjester move this page? Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:52, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Statement of Title Solution

After multiple months of discussion in which many good points were made, consensus has been reached as to the title of this article. There is no real established English name for this city due to its location. The official name as set down by Moldovan law, requires translation from the original Cyrillic. This leads to confusion as it can be written as Bender or Bendery. To use Bender, the disambig would have to be shifted and the competing interests of every other page known as Bender would come into play. To eliminate these concerns and guarantee uniqueness, Bendery was agreed upon as the title to use. Therefore, in accordance with consensus, this page needs to be moved to Bendery. Geoff Plourde (talk) 23:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

BENDERY

  • Oppose. This is a Russian name, and it's internet English usage is in doubt. see #The_city_name_used_by_the_web_community section bellow. Nor it's an official (internationally recognized) name. --serhio talk 11:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Support, although you got it a bit wrong: Bender is not a transliteration, because the official language of Moldova uses the Latin script. It is Bendery that is a (double) transliteration - first the Turkish "Bender" into the Cyrillic "Бендеры", then into the Latin "Bendery". However, since Bendery does indeed eliminate ambiguity of Bender and seems to be more widely used in modern English, I support this proposal. (I also dislike commas in location names.) --Illythr (talk) 07:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Strongly support. Per Illythr and my own comments prior. —PētersV (talk) 15:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. Probably the least worst solution which we can have here. User:Thedagomar, just for your information, Moldavian language uses Latin alphabet and there is no transliteraion required (that is why there is by the way the discussion on metawiki on renaming ro.wiki into mo-ro.wiki[4], of which you are probably already aware). Furthemore, even the official Moldavian legislation in Russian (this language is officially written in Cyrillic in Moldova) uses the term Bender (Russian: Бендер) and not Bendery (Russian: Бендеры). Ideally I would nevertheless see the article called Bender - since this perfectly corresponds to the Wiki policy when no English name can be established: use the official one. However, for the sake of the uniqueness, why not to move it Bendery. As for the so feared discussion of moving it to Bender (and the mess related to that page), so far, as I started the discussion there, I saw only one user on the talk page of Bender defending the case of supposedly the most popular searched subject under the term Bender - Futurama (honestly, have never heard, nor ever searched for this in my entire life). But hey, if the consensus is on Bendery, let's leave it so. For the sake of the uniqeness and for the sake of the end of this discussion... ;)--Moldopodotalk 16:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing out my error. As you can tell, I have very little exposure to Moldovan linguistics. Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:55, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
*Oppose--Flueras (talk) 18:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC) - vote by banned user.

BENDER

--serhio talk 11:24, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Oppose. Despite of it's official caracter, the denomination Bender is not the only one used in official document. Tighina is more often used by the Moldovans and they are 2 other reasons to preffer "Tighina" (see below the voting for Tighina). Besides, what deonimation is actually "Bender" it's nor Romanian/Moldovan, nor Russian. It is ... turkish. And if we would preffer Turkish denominations, than let's start to rename Sofia to Sofya, Sarajevo to Saraybosna etc. --Olahus (talk) 18:04, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
You do not get the point, that no real English name appears to exist. Geoff Plourde (talk) 19:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
*Oppose --Flueras (talk) 18:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC) - vote by banned user.
This is not true. See the #The_city_name_used_by_the_web_community section. --serhio talk 15:42, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

TIGHINA

*Support. I support Tighina. That's the Romanian name of the city. Flueras (talk) 17:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC) - vote by banned user.

Comments

Comment I know it's an old saw, but it is the English Wikipedia and all the best current sources on Moldova and the Transnistrian conflict (and I've accumulated a fair number, and they are not cheap!) use Bendery. "Tighina" is a "see Bendery" entry in every index I have. My strong personal preference is Tighina, but, once again, its use as the primary name for the city is limited in English sources; not using "Bendery" will only lead to confusion for readers not intimately familiar with Romania and Moldova. What we prefer personally or nationalistically (and I've been accused of being an offender in that regard on more than one occasion) does not always make the best reference for the average English-reader. This has nothing to do with what the native name is, or the oldest name, or what's become the predominant English usage for any other city in Moldova, Romania, former Ottoman empire,... once, twice, or thrice transliterated,... it's only about what's the most common name an English-reader would have encountered when they were reading about Romanian-Moldovan unification, the frozen-zone conflicts and Transnistria, etc. It pains me that the answer is not my personal preference, but "Bendery" is what it is. The stated opposition to "Bendery" is not based on English usage. —PētersV (talk) 19:26, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment A vote shopping is currently underway among Romanian users (and a few unrelated users) by an anonymous IP address from Germany. I kind of wonder, who it is... --Illythr (talk) 20:14, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


Note: The Encyclopedia Brittanica article is not a valid source, because it is part of the new, user-submitted britannica. It is not the traditional, peer-reviewed, version of the encyclopedia. ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 00:14, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Alas, a thousand Romanians confirming Tighina is Romanian won't tell us anything we don't already know :-) The joys of consensus building! —PētersV (talk) 02:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Microsoft Encarta calles the city mainly Tighina. The article about this city is called Tighina. See here. --Olahus (talk) 19:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Also it's apparently been suggested they pander to nationalists. (Mentioned in WP Encarta article.) Personally, they are a software company whose only goal is money, not scholars, but that's just me (and knowing inside history of ugly business dealings...). That's why I prefer specific respected scholars on the subject when it comes to controversies, we know the authors' credentials. —PētersV (talk) 22:24, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
What subjective reason would have Encarta to prefer the denomination Tighina instead of Bendery or Bender ? Besides, the most famous German Encyclopedias, like Meyers and Brockhaus do also use the denomination Tighina. I doubt that they are doing it from subjective reasons. --Olahus (talk) 23:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
They all seem to have that copied off one source, that "Until 1990" part... As for German sources - we're not proposing to rename the German article here, although I'll have to make a similar check in the German language as well... --Illythr (talk) 23:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
BTW, google shows a similar situation in German as well, except "Bender" is the more prevalent name there, being labelled the "German name" as it is... Perhaps I should start a similar discussion there, once this one closes. --Illythr (talk) 23:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Illythr, you know very well that Brockhaus and Meyers are serious sources. --Olahus (talk) 15:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
It seems I can edit the article in Meyers, which makes it as serious and reliable as Wikipedia. But the relevant text in both articles is pretty much identical to Britannica. If it was indeed last checked in 1991 or 1995, in can be obsolete. The population numbers, for example, seem to be very outdated. --Illythr (talk) 18:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
Support Tighina is in my opinion the name to be used, as for the reasons written here by Gutza. Tighina is also a neutral term, as it is the official name of the city in Moldova (that holds the international souveragnity of the city), as well as the official name of the city in one of the Transnistrian official languages (the so-called Moldovan written with Cyrillic alphabet). --Danutz (talk) 17:58, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Uh, the official name of the city in every official language of Moldova is Bender... Just read the discussion, will ya? --Illythr (talk) 21:18, 11 July 2008 (UTC)
Danutz, for the record, I have ended by abstaining. I won't be bothered to check who un-striked my vote, but I'll explicitly strike it again. --Gutza T T+ 21:47, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

moving page

From the above discussion it is overwhelmingly clear that the consensus of editors on this page is to move the page to Bendery. Therefore, I am moving the page, and once that is done I will lift the page protection and reopen the article for editing again. ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 00:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. "BENDERY" is the unique name of the city in English supported by the citizens and officials of Bendery.Владимир А. (talk) 07:38, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Turkish name

Olahus, this information is already included in the Name section. Why do you keep reinserting it into the lead, creating a redundancy? The lead section is already cluttered with needless repetitions as it is. Excess names should be removed, not inserted there. --Illythr (talk) 18:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The city name used by the web community

People, I don't quite understand, what you are talking about?

Let's leave the improper discussions, and see how the city's name used in internet. I used the Google as search arbiter, bellow the results:

General pages

148,000 for Bender Moldova
101,000 for Bendery Moldova
62,900 for Bender Tiraspol
22,500 for Bendery Tiraspol
18,900 for Bender Transnistria
6,270 for Bendery Transnistria
139,000 for Bender Smirnov
3,240 for Bendery Smirnov
5,700 for Bender Basarabia
906 for Bendery Basarabia

English pages

102,000 English pages for Bender Moldova
17,200 English pages for Bendery Moldova
23,100 English pages for Bender Tiraspol
21,300 English pages for Bendery Tiraspol


Russian variations (with Bessa-)

3,420 English pages for Bendery Bessarabia
1,010 English pages for Bender Bessarabia
215,000 English pages for Bessarabia
35,800 English pages for Basarabia

Now as I can see, only the Russian variant converts to Bendery...

You can consult also the results of search of cities moldova --serhio talk 08:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Google is not God. The name was chosen to end a long dispute, because it is used in several reliable sources. Geoff Plourde (talk) 18:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not searching for God, but statistical English usage of the discussed word. --serhio talk 15:44, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

King Karl Gustav XII of Sweden !

Charles XII of Sweden —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.89.66.145 (talk) 00:07, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

King Karl XII Gustav of Sweden ! (PLEASE)

..."and Turks who wished to take the Swedish king hostage and exploit the political difficulties of central Europe" ?![?}.

The king of Sweden was never an Ottoman hostage. He was an Noble guest. And was treated such as. when time came for the Swedish Majesty to leave, and ride home, the Sultan even gave his Majesty Ottoman soldiers to escort him and secure his journey home to Sweden.

Also the Sultan did also lend his Majesty an amount of gold coins. The only "repay" has until today been the Money the Swedes had to pay for their Consulate building with belonging ground it stands on ( Istanbul ).

Since the generous Sultans gave every country whom they had diplomatic connection with, the land and the building as a gift to them all. Except the Embassy of Sweden, they had to actually pay for their. Since the loan of the gold coins was and is still not payed back to neither the Ottoman rulers nor The Republic of Turkey.

..by the way its time for you to do some explorations by your self now.. Listen and read more, do research not only Church church..

213.89.66.145 (talk) 00:52, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

This image speaks otherwise. --Illythr (talk) 18:04, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to move article to the name Bender, Moldova

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was move to Bender, Moldova. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:25, 13 July 2009 (UTC)


Bendery → Bender, Moldova — Official, uncontroversial name. Dc76\talk 01:57, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

  • nomination. It is the official, uncontroversial name. Tighina and Bendery would redirect here. All 3 names are used in English, although with varying frequency. In addition to the fact that Bender (together with Tighina) is more often used, it is also the current official name. Should in the future the official name change to Tighina or Bendery, we can reconsider. Dc76\talk 01:57, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Support Bender is much more common in English than Bendery.JdeJ (talk) 21:29, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Support per JdeJ. Bender is the traditional usage, and the BBC still uses it at least as often as Bendery. I would also support Bender (city) for those who feel the location is in dispute. Septentrionalis PMAnderson
    Personally, I have no preference between Bender, Moldova and Bender (city). But I have been told in discussions on different articles that the former is a better disambiguator than the latter. If you have serious arguments for the latter, please let me know, because I would then have to look into a dozen or more other articles, so that we have consistency "across the board". Dc76\talk 23:53, 6 July 2009 (UTC)
    If nobody cares, so much the better. But this is one of the few cities in the world which is actively in dispute between two countries (largely the claim that one of them doesn't legitimately exist); the only comparable case I can think of is Zug, Western Sahara. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:12, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Support, although what the official name is doesn't matter. The common name in English seems to be either "Bender" or "Tighina". The latter would have the advantage of not needing disambiguation, but I'm not against moving to Bender, Moldova. Jafeluv (talk) 10:04, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
    If I remember correctly, a "study" by one WP editor a year or two ago revealed that Bender and Tighina are used approximately in proportion 6:7. If the fact that Bender is currently the official name (both names were official at some point in not so distant past) could count as 1/7, then I guess we have an equal choice between Bender, Moldova and Tighina. Personally, I would have preferred Tighina, one of the reasons being that the latter, as you said, doesn't require disambiguation. But I noticed that some users take offence at the name Tighina, because it is too much differnet from the name used in Russian during the Soviet period. Moreover, this is not about my personal preferences. So, in order to avoid this controversy again, I did not suggest "Tighina". If you prefer it, please suggest so, but let's not leave it at "Bendery" when we discuss at length between Bender and Tighina. Dc76\talk 21:07, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Support - this ideally should be at Tighina, but Bender, Moldova is a good second-best. "Bendery" is transliterated Russian; "Bender" is what English-language sources actually call the place. - Biruitorul Talk 21:18, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Support - I originally lobbied for Bendery as another common variant which also solved the disambiguation issue. Current usage is not 100% clear if I use the BGN database... the "inhabited" area is most properly Tighina, while the administrative center, railway station, et al. (everything else) are most properly "Bender." That leads me to conclude that "Bender" is the most appropriate term for current common English usage. VЄСRUМВА  ☎  22:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
  • Support. To tell you the truth, I didn't know much about this going into it, but based on what I have learned via a little research I'm of the opinion that this is the most common English-language name for the city, so we should use it. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:05, 7 July 2009 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

lead

Alaexis, Bender is not geographically in Transnistria, nor it is considered part of Transnistria by official Moldovan acts, It is controlled by Transnistrian authorities. Why don't you say exactly that? About two police forces in the city, that is part of the 1992 agreement. You should not remove "The moon moves around the sun earth" simply because there was no citation in time. You above others know the Transnistrian issue and should know that there are two police forces in the city. Dc76\talk 15:36, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok, let's replace Transnistria with PMR. The fact that there are two police forces in the city is much less obvious than your example and as such requires proof; feel free to add treaty provisions to the article. Alæxis¿question? 19:31, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Ok, let's see. What exact wording do you suggest? (could you, please, write that below) About the two police forces, I agree that the correct comparison with the moon's motion would be to go back 5,000 years. Then it was not so obvious that the moon goes around the earth. By the way, it is earth, not sun. Neither me, nor you noticed this! :) I am not really in the mood now to find reference from the 1992 agreement, but I will sometimes latter. I agree with you a reference in that place would look better. In case I don't find exactly the text of the agreement, I guess some press articles referring to the two forces would be fine? (you know, in 1992 there was no internet yet) Dc76\talk 20:31, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
Probably it will be ok.
My proposal:
I have nothing against variations of the above (Transnistria/PMR/Pridnestrvie, disputed region/unrecognised country etc.)
ps. Well, the moon does move around the Sun together with the Earth. Alæxis¿question? 13:16, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Let me have a counter proposal:

1,3,5, and 7th lines are not modified. 4 and 6th are just wikifications.

All 192 UN member countries, including Russia recognize the city as part of Moldova. Therefore it would be factually incorrect to say it is located in PMR. PMR is the name of the authority that controls Transnistria and Bender. That authority might or might not become one day the governement of an independent country. But right now it is simply the authority of a territory that proclaimed independence but did not achieve it legally. Dc76\talk 15:57, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I am glad this issues was so easy to settle. Dc76\talk 19:24, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ a b (in Romanian) Law 764-XV from December 27, 2001 on administrative-territorial organisation of the Republic of Moldova, Monitorul Oficial al Republicii Moldova, no. 16/53, December 29, 2001 (subsequent modifications taken into account)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 4 external links on Bender, Moldova. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 20:13, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Bender,_Moldova/Archive_2&oldid=1256293280"