Talk:Bell CH-146 Griffon

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Bell CH-146 Griffon article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Aviation: Rotorcraft

This article is within the scope of the Aviation WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.AviationWikipedia:WikiProject AviationTemplate:WikiProject Aviationaviation articles

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

This article is supported by the rotorcraft project.

Military history: Aviation / Canadian / North America

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Military aviation task force
	Canadian military history task force
	North American military history task force

Canada Start‑class Mid‑importance

	Canada portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Canada, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Canada on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CanadaWikipedia:WikiProject CanadaTemplate:WikiProject CanadaCanada-related articles
Start	This article has been given a rating which conflicts with the project-independent quality rating in the banner shell. Please resolve this conflict if possible.
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article is written in Canadian English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, centre, travelled, realize, analyze) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

Close proposed merge

Removing merge tag, see discussion at Talk:Bell 412 Akradecki 23:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Diemaco 7.62mm Chain Gun

At least on two occasions [1][2] IP addresses have added "Diemaco 7.62mm Chain Gun" as a weapon available to the CH-146. The official CF references [3][4] for the aircraft do not support this. An internet search does not turn up any connection between the CH-146 and this weapon. If anyone has a reference to support that the Canadian Forces CH-146 fleet has this weapon please provide it, otherwise please stop adding this. - Ahunt (talk) 11:44, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Canadian Forces had tested a Colt Canada 7.62mm Chain Gun. [5] Der Kaisser 00:41, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Purchase or Lease

The article says that the government purchased these units. Is this accurate? I thought the units were leased from Canadian Helicopter out of St. Johns —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.242.93.2 (talk) 16:44, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

DND purchased them in a $1B contract in the mid-1990s, nothing to do with CHC at all. - Ahunt (talk) 16:48, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suitability for Afghanistan section

Do these arguments really need to be quoted? Seems like a summary would do. Won't most all helicopters have decreased capability in high and hot conditions there? -Fnlayson (talk) 03:45, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I included it because it is really leading to a much larger problem with the aircraft than just "performance decreases with increased DA", which, as you quite correctly point out, is common to all aircraft. The point is that the standard empty weight on the civil 412 was 6600 lbs while most of the CH-146s were delivered at around 8000 lbs empty. In service they have proven so over-weight that they haven't been able to fill any role satisfactorily and carry less than the CH-135s (UH-1N) and even the CH-118 (UH-1H) that they replaced. In the Afgan theatre this has meant years of no helicopter support due to the to wrong aircraft being purchased and resulting casualties. In domestic operations it has meant the job not getting done. When you add in the fact that UH-60 Blackhawks were offered to Canada at about the same price you have a fairly important story about this aircraft, including some political factors involved in its purchase. I am still looking for more refs to support expanding this part of the story. - Ahunt (talk) 12:55, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, glad I asked first. The weight issue must be even worst on the armed CH-146s that are to be deployed. If some solid sources can be found to support overall performance issues, then the section should be under 'Design and development', imo. -Fnlayson (talk) 13:41, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have added some more text on the overall problems with the aircraft and quotes. Essentially the procurement was a national scandal in the order of the cancellation of the Avro Arrow or the purchase of the CF-5, but it never broke in the press like those stories did. I have added all I can find for now, although there are thousands of forum posts with inside info - too bad they are unusable! I don't mind if the section is moved - see what you think, would it be better under Design & Dev?. - Ahunt (talk) 14:53, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For now either place seems alright as problems affect operational use. Maybe move to Design & dev when there is more info on design deficiencies. I can't seem to find any specs on CH-146 that list empty weight. -Fnlayson (talk) 15:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

All the official sources avoid listing that number! The main problem is not with the aircraft design itself, but with the military specified equipment that added about 1400 lbs to the civil version. The other problem is that the military tried to use it to replace aircraft that it cannot replace, like the Kiowa in the LOH role or the Chinook with its 25,000 lb lift capacity. It really isn't a design deficiency problem, but more equipment, operational and political. There is a lot more, but no sources, yet! - Ahunt (talk) 15:25, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Brassey's World Aircraft & Systems Directory 1999/2000 gives a fully equipped empty weight for the CH-146 of 7,511 lb, compared with the Augusta Bell AB412EP (basically the same helicopter) with an empty weight of 6,425 lb. Of course, it has probably got heavier since then.Nigel Ish (talk) 00:22, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting! That is probably a Bell-supplied number. The first 146 delivered to AETE in 1995 had an empty weight of about 7950 lbs! - Ahunt (talk) 13:25, 9 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Maintenance contract

Canada awarded Bell a 10 year maintenance contract to support the -146 this past week. Here are some links [6] [7] [8] for those interested. This looks like just a basic maintenance support contract. So probably does not need to be added to the article, but the end of service time 2021-25 might. Has there been any notable upgrades the CH-146 since it was bought, other than the Minigun kit? Have any improvements to the Griffon's engines or rotors been looked at to make up for its weight issues? Thanks. -fnlayson (talk) 15:07, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The expected retirement date is probably all that is worth adding, although based on my experience in the CF it will probably be extended. I'll add that in. - Ahunt (talk) 18:12, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]