Talk:Belasica

Bulgaria Mid‑importance

	Bulgaria portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Bulgaria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Bulgaria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BulgariaWikipedia:WikiProject BulgariaTemplate:WikiProject BulgariaBulgaria articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Greece

	Greece portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Mountains Low‑importance

	Mountains portal This article is part of WikiProject Mountains, a project to systematically present information on mountains. If you would like to participate, you can choose to edit the article attached to this page (see Contributing FAQ for more information), or visit the project page where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.MountainsWikipedia:WikiProject MountainsTemplate:WikiProject MountainsMountain articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Why the name shouldn't be Kerkini

35% + 20% = 55% > 45%. Todor →Bozhinov 11:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Should be Belasitsa not 'Belasica' for 20% + 45% = 65% > 35%, and Cyrillic 'Ц' is transliterated as 'TS' in English anyway. Apcbg (talk) 20:40, 25 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Greek is not Slavic so really it's 35% > 20%. And using Academic transliteration 'ц' is rendered 'c'. Balkan Fever 07:00, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, the Greek names are Béles and Kerkíni. My grounds to name the article so were that Macedonian normally has c as the Latin of ц and that is also a fairly common transliteration for Bulgarian. Of course, my reasoning is open to discussion; I just don't think we should go for the Greek name in that case. Todor →Bozhinov 12:43, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is English not ‘Academic’ Wikipedia (incidentally, academic/scientific transliteration has already been abandoned in the new Macedonian IDs). What is relevant here is the predominant English usage, and a Google search gives 27,000 hits for ‘Belasitsa’ in English language pages against 12,700 hits for ‘Belasica’ in English language pages (furthermore, part of the latter are instances of obsolete Bulgarian transliteration that is being replaced). Apcbg (talk) 17:08, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is (meant to be) an encyclopaedia, an academic resource, not a mere assembly of "English" words. Macedonian IDs are irrelevant, since "Беласица" isn't a given or family name. Furthermore, my googling gets me 67,300 vs 64,600, which is a much closer call. Not to mention that most of both are referring to the clubs from Strumica (not Strumitsa) and Petrich (not Petrič). Balkan Fever 12:32, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I specifically stressed "in English language pages" above, twice. Your search and its results are misleading as they refer to occurences in all languages, including languages such as Serbian, Croatian, Slovenian etc. where the spelling form 'Belasica' is overwhelming but irrelevant to usage in English language. Like I wrote, search should be restricted to English language, and the results are as given above. German and French Wikipedias are neither less encyclopaedic nor less academic resources than English Wikipedia is, and precisely because of that they do not use ‘Belasica’ but the transliterated forms ‘Belasiza’ and ‘Belassitsa’ oriented to German and French language respectively. Apcbg (talk) 15:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since, the most of the mountain is in Greece, we should adopt the Greek name. The Greek official name is Kerkini mount. It is also used the name "Belles" from the local people (mainly in Greece but also in Bulgaria and FYROM somehow limited). The name "Belasica" is not correct anyway according to the above discussion because in english "Belasitsa" is a more common writing trasnfered from the Cyrillic alphabet. Since, greek, slavomacedonian and boulgarian languages are not using latin alphabet "Belasitsa" seems to be the most suitable writing for the slavic name of the mount. Anyway, Kerkini must be the name of this article, because it refers to a mailny Greek mountain and its not name uknown in english language. User:Pyraechmes Chrusts 07:25, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Since the most of the mountain in not in Greece, but as follows: in Republic of Macedonia 35% + Bulgaria 20% = 55% > 45% in Greece, then its name should be in Macedono-Bulgarian Slavic, i.e. 'Belasitsa' or 'Belasica'. More, if I see its name in Greek is also 'Beles', which is derivative from Belasitsa. Jingiby (talk) 10:41, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I confirm my position substantiated above (by the way, dated five years ago ...) that the most suitable article title would seem to be Belasitsa. Best, Apcbg (talk) 11:01, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First of all I don;t see any saurces to say that the name is slavic. Slavic is only the ending "itsa" and nothing more. The local Greek name is Belles. That name is also used by local people of Bulgaria and Skopje. So, if we try to find an encyclopediacal name, Belles is the most suitable.

We have three options here:

Kerkini mount
Belles
Belasitsa

The current form is wrong. User:Pyraechmes Chrusts 21:20, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What I have found is that the name Belasitsa is a Slavic word probably derived from the ancient Thracian/Paionian toponym of the mountain Orbelos, which means 'belos' - blazing or shining and (or)-mountain. [1]; [2]; [3]; [4]. Jingiby (talk) 15:47, 15 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pyraechmes, do you have any evidence that most of the mountain is in Greece? The entire northern slope of the mountain is in Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia; most of the southern slope is in Greece, but the westernmost part of the mountain is entirely in the Republic of Macedonia (see here), so most likely this claim is incorrect. In any case, the primary criteria for determining the name of an article is which name is more common in English and in this case, this is clearly Belasitsa/Belasica (this is after all the same name, just using different transcription systems), so that's how the article should be named. Incidentally, the claim that Beles is used in Bulgaria or the Republic of Macedonia is false, only Belasitsa is used. Kostja (talk) 15:16, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First of all: It was written above that the name comes from the ancient name Orbelos. It was written also, thar the anme is Thracian/Paeonian. I add Thracian/Paeonian/Greek since the only written evidence of the name "Orbelos" is from Greek language. So, there is nothing to prove us that the name is slavic. When I said that most of the mount is in Greece, I was wrong propably. I just meant the Greece has the greater part of the mountain compaired with the other two parts. But, nobody answers to the question: Since the form "Belasica" is wrong in English language, and since we have to move the article in an appropriate form, which name sould be the right one? User:Pyraechmes Chrusts 22:01, 16 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

While Belasitsa originates from a non-Slavic word, it is enough that it was modified by the rules of Slavic languages and is used by them. Using your logic, it could be claimed that Beles is not a Greek name, because it's a borrowing from Belasitsa.

As for which transliteration is correct, while Belasitsa is more understandable to an English speaker, Belasica seems to be more common ("Belasitsa mountain" vs "Belasica mountain") and using "c" to transcribe "ц" follows the scientific transliteration system. In any case, Beles and Kerkini are used far less often in English, so they're not suitable as a name for the article. Kostja (talk) 20:58, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So, you think that if we put the slavic ending -itsa in Kerkini and make it Kerkinitsa, we make the word slavic? And that Belles that comes from Beles, that comes from Orbelos is a slavic word because the Slavs put the ending -itsa in the same word? (!) No, it's not the same.

I still don't understand from the above, why Belasica is more suitable than Belasitsa? User:Pyraechmes Chrusts 21:35, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it wouldn't make it Slavic, but Belasitsa is a substantial modification of the original word. And there is the l.l - you can hardly call a word used mainly in Slavic

If Beles was directly descended from Orbelos, it would be pronounced Veles due to the shift from "b" in ancient Greek to "v" in modern Greek. That the sound "b" in Greek usually occurs only in loanwords is also evidence for a origin from Belasitsa. Also Beles is much closer to Belasitsa than to Orbelos - the loss of the initial or-, the fronting of the first "o". Furthermore, the word Orbelos has been in fact retained in modern Greek, as Orvilos, though it refers to Slavyanka (or perhaps Pirin as well).

Belasica seems to be more suitable as it occurs more often in English texts. I've placed a comparison above. Kostja (talk) 08:54, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Google search yields 7,050,000 hits for ‘Belasitsa -Belasica -Wiki’ vs. 827,000 hits for ‘Belasica -Belasitsa -Wiki’. Apcbg (talk) 09:12, 18 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So, we can move it to Belasitsa, I think. User:Pyraechmes Chrusts 22:26, 21 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I support that, and hope the other participants in the present discussion would agree. Of course, both Belasica and Kerkini should be given in bold script in the lede, too. Best, Apcbg (talk) 07:41, 22 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]