Talk:Beheading game

Source Citation Not Verified

The chapter by Larissa Tracy in the book Heads will Roll is entitled "“So he smote of hir hede by myssefortune”: The Real Price of the Beheading Game in SGGK and Malory" -- I would normally have just corrected the source citation but I am unclear if there's another source that might have been used instead. Vermiculite (talk) 14:22, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• It seems to have been vandalism, corrupting the citation. I have reverted. Andrew🐉(talk) 14:34, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

References

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Beheading game/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Premeditated Chaos (talk · contribs) 00:22, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Looks neat. I will dibs. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:22, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Okay, sorry, I should probably be beheaded for letting this sit. Here we go! My reviewing style is to roll through from top to bottom making suggestions as I go. Typically I point out structural things related to the GA criteria like completion and prose clarity, the rest are miscellaneous thoughts or questions. I'm open to discussion if you think anything I point out should stay as-is. Finally, I will never fail an article for not implementing suggestions that aren't related to the GA criteria.

Description and history

• English poetry and German poetry both exist (well, German's a redirect, but it might be worth linking them anyway).
  • Linked both
• "Exchange of Blows" is capitalized in the body but not the lead - intentional?
  • I believe so; in the body it's referencing the specific trope, whereas the lede is referencing "an exchange of blows" (definite vs. indefinite article)
• Your piped link to Homo Ludens via "categories of play" is a bit of an easter egg link.
  • Elaborated and moved sections
• The above-noted sentence is really close to the original - if it can't be paraphrased, perhaps a direct quote instead.
  • Altered
• This may be subjective, but something about the last few sentences of paragraph one of the body feels off-kilter. We go from a description of the Exchange of Blows, then mention categories of play, then we're off to speculating about the folkloric origins. It might read better if rearranged to go straight from describing the Exchange of Blows to the description of the beheading game. Then you could get into history and analysis after.
  • Moved the categories of play to a new section to alleviate this issue
• You mention German and French stories but don't discuss the actual stories. How come? (Tweaked - the French stories come up later under Arthurian romance.)

Celtic mythology

• It might be worth putting some brief identifying context for those of us who aren't familiar with Celtic mythology. Who's Conchobar mac Nessa? I thought we were at Bricriu's feast? What's a churl? Who's Cú Roí? Even if you just say "the warrior Cú Roí" it helps.
  • "Churl" is wikilinked, I don't think more elaboration is needed (and would make the text clunky). Context added for the others.
• The description section mentions the game appearing in two Irish works, but the section only discusses one.
  • I believe that the two Irish works refer to the two versions of Bricriu's Feast (the "Champion's Bargain" and "Uath" chapters, respectively)

Arthurian romance

• This is 100% a personal nitpick but "magical father" sounds odd to me. "Sorcerous father" maybe? Or "his father, a wizard"?
  • I like sorcerous, changed it to that.
• I think it's fair to have no explanation for Gareth since we can assume he's a knight, but some context for Lynette and Lyonesse might be useful.
  • Alack, there's not a ton of context because this is one of those stories about "mysterious strangers", so I did the best I could.
• Do we know how the story with the Red Knight ends after Gareth decides to stop hitting him? And why is Lynette helping him if she's trying to get Gareth to rescue Lyonesse from him?
  • Added more detail. It's apparently a chastity/purity/whatever thing.
• La Mule sans frein is mentioned but gets no elaboration.
  • Added and restructured para to improve flow.

Literary analysis

• "associated the beheading game as a metaphor" - I think the grammar's off here. You describe as, you associate with, generally.
  • Whoops, I think that sentence was originally constructed a different way and then the ADHD kicked in.
• This may be more to do with the sourcing than the writing of the article (or I could be misunderstanding, but earlier you state that Cú Chúlainn's participation is the culmination of his warriorhood, which seems at odds with the text here which discusses his participation as a coming of age thing.
  • The author is admittedly not the clearest and may have been referring to another beheading of Cú Chúlainn's, so I have rephrased to indicate the primary message of that section, which is that beheading = coming of age.
• Who are Laura Ashe, Piero Boitani, Victoria L. Weiss, and Elizabeth Scala?
  • Added credentials for all.

Other iterations

• This is a nitpick, but logically I would think modern adaptations would go last, after other older mythologies? Not necessarily stuck on the idea.
  • The way I was thinking of it was "moving outwards from the base trope", so we have direct adaptations → similar mythologies → similar themes.
• Do we know how the story of the Grey Carle ends?
  • Frustratingly, no. The episode seems mostly confined (at least in English, I do not speak Icelandic) to Sigurðsson's Gaelic Influence in Iceland, and he brushes it off right before the ending.
• Context for Kintu?
  • I have elected to remove that section entirely, as I think the author is making a bit of a stretch and any way I try to incorporate it feels clunky.
• Who's Christopher Wrigley, and can we expand on the whole beheading-circumcision connection? You immediately move on after mentioning it - I was curious about this odd little analysis.
  • Moved the circumcision bit up to "literary analysis".

General thoughts

• Are there more images that could be inserted? Pictures of Gawain, any of the Celtic heroes, things like that?
  • Added some photos, but I don't love them. No longer have access to a lot of the special collections from my undergrad.
• Sourcing looks good, I have no concerns with reliability of the various academic sources cited, and the citations I spot-checked matched.

Okay, that's the bulk of the review. Respond at your leisure and we'll go from there :) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:06, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Premeditated Chaos I just wanted to inform you, as I've been informing a few others, that I was in a motorcycle accident this past week and my on-wiki time will be limited as 1) my one arm is in a sling, inhibiting my motion, and 2) I am supposed to limit my screen time while under concussion protocols. Still committed to working on this, albeit slowly. — GhostRiver 05:21, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh lord, I had no idea! Please take your time and don't worry about this. A green circle is far less important than your health. Hopefully your recovery is quick! ♠PMC♠ (talk) 14:09, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

I will be okay! Helmets are a great invention, and my bike is just a bike. It'll get fixed. I just wanted to let you know that my dilly-dallying has a reason behind it. — GhostRiver 15:11, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Absolutely no worries, just ping me when you're good to go. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 15:34, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Premeditated Chaos After 20 million years, a graduation, and a major injury, I do believe I've addressed everything, which included a moderate-to-major overhaul. — GhostRiver 23:29, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

It looks fucking great and I'm happy to pass it. Please ping me if you take it to FAC - I'd be happy to comment/support there as well. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 07:11, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 01:42, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

The Green Knight survives his half of the beheading game.

• ... that Gawain's first mistake in the beheading game may have been beheading the Green Knight in the first place? Source: p. 168 here and this whole article
  • ALT1: ... that Laura Ashe believes the Gawain Poet used the beheading game to criticize the emptiness of chivalry? Source: Pretty much all of chapter 10 here
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Sharifi-ha House
  • Comment: Can think of more hooks as needed, sorry about the book refs

5x expanded by GhostRiver (talk). Self-nominated at 15:30, 23 March 2022 (UTC).

• size and age ok, prose fine, QPQ done. hook sourced and faithful to hook. good to go. I'd go with first hook. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:05, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
  • Since this article is about a literary trope, I'm going to strike ALT0 as outside our rules about fictional works. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 22:15, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

ALT1 to T:DYK/P5 without image

Links to game theory

Interested in how game theorists model the beheading game. This is all "above my head", but in case it's helpful, there is:

Pugh, Tison (Summer 2002). "Gawain and the Godgames". Christianity in Literature, 51(4):525–551. Link on JSTOR. Cielquiparle (talk) 21:42, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the reference, Cielquiparle! I found that article earlier but dismissed it; looking more closely at game theory with regards to SSGK, I've found a few more sources that can be layered in. — GhostRiver 00:25, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

"Works cited"

Very minor point: the last section is entitled "Works cited", yet my tool indicates that 3 references are not cited in the body. Perhaps "Sources" or "Bibliography" would be preferable, then? JBchrch talk 14:12, 21 April 2022 (UTC)