Talk:Behbeit El Hagar

Ancient Egypt: Egyptian religion Low‑importance

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Temple of Isis

‎27md98 About the parallelism between the Isis temples at Behbeit el-Hagar and Philae, according to Wilkinson (2003) the Temple of Isis was begun under Nectanebo II, and definitely not during the 5th Dynasty. Wilkinson further explains that for most of Egyptian history Isis didn't enjoy an exclusive worship place, but was usually associated with other deities: indeed, at Behbeit el-Hagar "as in her other later sanctuaries, Isis was venerated along with Osiris and Horus as was probably the case in earlier shrines which existed on the site" (quoted from p. 149).

I believe that the misunderstanding lies here. While the Osirian triad - and consequently Isis - was worshiped there since earlier times, the temple itself was built between the 30th and the Ptolemaic Dynasty. With the temple of Isis at Philae apparently begun by Nectanebo I, the parallelism between the two almost coeval temples fits quite well. Khruner (talk) 20:34, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

the pyramid texts of the fifth dynasty already mention that isis is a main goddess in the twelfth nome of the delta. so the idea of that temple being as old as the fifth dynasty make alot more sense. and i would like to mention that i gone there myself and many blocks there bear the names of ramses the second which is something that when you combine with the pyramid texts will make it illogical to state that it was built on the greek period. plus if you are saying that "the osirian triad was worshiped there since earlier times" that also solidify my point since a temple for the osirian triad is technically a temple of isis since we already call the temple of heliopolis "the temple of ra" even tho it was a temple for the whole heliopolitan ennead! 27md98 (talk) 20:54, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's important to clarify what we mean here. Multiple successive temples could be built on a single site, so, for example, the sites of Edfu and Dendera seem to have had temples of some kind going back to the Old Kingdom, but the current temples on both sites were built in Ptolemaic times. When we discuss the Temple of Edfu or the Temple of Dendera, we mean the Ptolemaic temples that currently stand there, unless we specify that we're talking about earlier temples at those sites. (For a further example, when we talk about the Parthenon we talk about the one built in Pericles's time, not the Older Parthenon or the Old Temple of Athena.) If some blocks at Behbeit el-Hagar bear the name of Ramesses II, that's not surprising; they could be from an earlier temple at Behbeit el-Hagar. But all the sources I'm aware of indicate that the most recent temple at Behbeit el-Hagar, the one with the granite blocks, was built in the Thirtieth Dynasty, and that's the one we're talking about now.

Also, we need to distinguish between the primary and secondary deities in a temple. Ra was undoubtedly the primary deity at Heliopolis, although other deities were worshipped there. At Philae, Isis was the primary deity and Osiris and Horus were secondary. Egyptologists seem to assume that the Thirtieth Dynasty kings intended the temple at Behbeit el-Hagar to parallel Philae, so it would seem Isis was the primary deity at Behbeit el-Hagar. I don't know what evidence there is about previous temples on the same site, and Wilkinson's vague wording seems to suggest that we can't tell who was the primary deity in those earlier temples. Without further sources, I'm not sure there's anything more we can say on that subject. A. Parrot (talk) 00:51, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

that edfu point is good because its's exactly my point! we're here on a wiki page called "Behbeit El Hagar" not "the thirtieth dynasty temple of isis at Behbeit El Hagar" that's why we should write the ((whole)) history of Behbeit El Hagar and that includes the fact that when isis first appeared in history she appeared as a goddess of Behbeit El Hagar and the twelfth nome of the delta. and also includes all the informations we have about older temples at the site like the temples we know about from the pyramid texts. just like what you said that when we write on the wiki page of "temple of edfu" we only write about the temple that stands there today but when we write on the wiki page of "edfu" we cite the whole history of the city. 27md98 (talk) 01:35, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

But it's far from certain that Isis was originally a goddess of Behbeit el-Hagar, and even if it were, that wouldn't necessarily mean that earlier temples here were dedicated primarily to her. The relevant passage in Münster's text (which was translated into English for me by a Wikipedian who didn't have a fully fluent grasp of English, so we should be cautious in how we use it) says the following:

We don't know the cultic origin of Isis. In general, the town which was named after Isis by antique authors, Iseum in the nome of Sebennytos, is assumed to be the original cult place of Isis. In Egyptian language, the town was called ntrw; it was also called hbjt, from which the Arabian town name Behbêt was derived. There are traces that indicate that ntrw and hbjt were not the same, but neighboring towns. At two times, Isis is connect in the Pyramid Texts with the town ntrw... Since the Middle Kingdom, ntrw was seen as the cult place Isis per se.

Steven Snape, in The Complete Cities of Ancient Egypt, says on page 195:

Although a town called Hebyt is attested as early as the New Kingdom, it is unlikely that Behbeit el-Hagar was ever a major settlement in its own right and can best be regarded as a monumental offshoot of Sammanud, where kings of the 30th Dynasty (and the Ptolemaic Period) had the space to develop a massive new temple to Isis as a counterpart to its southern equivalent on Philae Island near Aswan.

So Behbeit el-Hagar seems to have been some kind of outlying region or satellite town of Sebennytos, and one that may not even have existed until the New Kingdom. Isis was connected with Sebennytos in the Pyramid Texts, but not in such away that we can be certain that it was her cult center that early, and Münster seems to say that the first texts to explicitly treat it as her cult center date to the Middle Kingdom. So saying that the Isis temple dates back to the Fifth Dynasty would be going far beyond what the sources say, and even contradicting what they say. A. Parrot (talk) 02:30, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

well the facts you are stating here are: - the first town that was named after isis was the capital of the twelfth nome of lower egypt. - the first mention of isis in history occurred at the time of the fifth dynasty and it states that isis was a goddess at the twelfth nome of lower egypt. - the first texts to mention a cult center of isis was written in the middle kingdom and that center mentioned on it is the capital of the twelfth nome of lower egypt. i don't know why that facts are being used against me writing that "isis's cult may have originated in the twelfth nome of lower egypt"?? i mean they just prove that my edit is on point! and if your point is about that such thing should be written on the page of Sebennytos then i just want you to open the wiki page of isis and go to "Major cult center" and you will find Behbeit el-Hagar there and that's why i wrote the facts above here! since a person coming from the wiki page of isis will want to know more about the relation between isis and the town and it's history at the whole nome. but yeah anyway i would like to make a new page for the twelfth nome (Calf and Cow land) since it's a notable one cause isis was an important goddess on the ancient times and the nome that her cult was introduced from must have a page of its own. hope you can help on that since it looks like you are an old wikipedian 👍 27md98 (talk) 03:59, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]