Talk:Beatrice Green

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Beatrice Green/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: JimKillock (talk · contribs) 08:24, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

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This will be a pass but there's a couple of fixes need, at the lead and images is now a pass.

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   The lead needs brief mention of

• • Her personal background (daughter of a collier, grammar school educated, Baptist assuming this is correct)
  • Her early work on health and on birth control
  • that she played role in the general strike
  • Her Soviet trip fundraising for the locked out strikers
  • to state her early death and the level of praise and expectation set for her

1. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

   you should probably list the citation for Labour Dictionary as "Beatrice Green" by Newman, Lowri, in - she's the author of the article (she does one of the speeches in the memorial service btw

   I would avoid referring to "church" if you mean "Baptist church". "Church" usually implies Church of England, which is to say, where the coal pit owners and their toadies went, or "The Tory Party at Prayer". Alternative terms would be "chapel" or "nonconformist";

   When you mention she attended a "church school", checking that this was a full time school run by a church?

2. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   There's some omissions maybe, but these are optional fixes, and some I had missed on my read through

3. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   No problems here

4. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   Seems stable

5. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   This is the bit that needs work, I think there ought to be media available, whether contemporary or modern: locations maybe? portrait of the person that can be claimed under fair use? anything out of copyright (might be, just about, pre 1920 approx) (images now added)

6. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   This will be a pass once images and the lead are fixed

Here are some improvements that I think you could make. They aren't all necessary to pass IMO, but would make the article more useful for an average reader:

• She seems to have been a Church of England member, is that right? This seems a bit unusual for the daughter of a south Wale s collier, and a bit of context why would be helpful to know. She was a Baptist it seems, this should be explained. You may know but many do not know that there is a strong connection between "nonconformist" (ie, not CofE) chapels and the working class movement in the UK, as strange as that may sound today. For instance, it gave people a background in democratic control of institutions, self help, self education and oratory.
• Being a grammar school girl is quite unusual - some context how she achieved this would be good if available
• In "Early life and entry into activism" she says "With the inadequate measure of franchise, woman is realising that politics have a direct bearing upon her home, and that she has to get out in order to put things right" We can't assume that people will know that the franchise in 1921 was incomplete, or when it was fully widened. A few words are needed, perhaps in a footnote.
• How did the Great War affect her? Most people lost some relatives at least.
• The Linen League: what was their relationship with the hospital, or what kind of hospital was it? I assume it ran with some kind of social purpose eg being a charity, based around or run by a church by the sound of it. I'm not familiar with exactly how hospitals and health ran in the period but obviously that was a major issue, which would stand behind her motivation in helping. A bit of context would help the reader understand what she was doing. NB: somewhere it mentions it was a District Hospital, I think it the Wales Labour bio.
• You mention she was "fluent in French". This seems a leap, from grammar school French to fluency. Perhaps the sources say nothing on this but it feels like something is missed. It is the only point up to then where the article appears to lack credibility.
• Regarding her Soviet trip, this was obviously in the years before the worst crimes were committed. She's not in the same league of credulity as Sidney and Beatrice Webb. Something explaining this would help the balance, as casual readers won't necessarily understand all this. On the other hand, do we know what level of control was placed on her trip? It wouldn't have been nothing I imagine.

Other things

• Worth adding an external link to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHEPCU0o4UQ ?
• Worth adding a mention of the 2018 memorial service that the video covers with Nick Smith MP
• There are a lot of facts in the video which you may be able to find from elsewhere. Many of her male relatives were colliers. She lost relatives to accidents at the coal face (you have the most important one). Memorial service to her at Ebenezer Baptist Chapel after she died.

In conclusion, I enjoyed reading about her and think it's a very good piece of work, well done. I can see why you wanted to write this and I hope other people get to read it as well.

• Thanks for the review. I'll begin working through your comments. Curbon7 (talk) 07:55, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Great - I've been reading through the Labour bio piece, which is na good source on the bits I thought could be added - it explains the difference between church and chapel / nonconformist, and the chapel-socialism link very well. I'm not religious myself btw but I did live a long time in Wales, so know how important this is for the identity of the Labour movement there. Jim Killock (talk) 08:15, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I was able to find a PD portrait of Green through the Bruley book. I have not yet been able to find any scans of the original image, nor of the images from the YouTube video; I attempted to reach out to Drs. Bruley and Newman but did not receive a response. Curbon7 (talk) 08:44, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

That's good - is it worth incorporating any of the images we put onto Talk:Beatrice Green? They're at least illustrations of where she grew up and lived. Jim Killock (talk) 20:36, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Congratulations on your work - I've made a couple of minor image additions so it can pass. Well done and thank you for writing this article! --Jim Killock (talk) 23:07, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Possible images

Possible images:

• 
  Ebenezer Baptist Chapel, Abertillery
• 
  Abertillery
• 
  Vivian Colliery, Penybont, Abertillery
• 
  Ebenezer Baptist Chapel, Abertillery circa 1905

Jim Killock (talk) 19:05, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

We can’t be sure about image 4. Two prints from the same negative are listed by the National Library of Wales under two different chapel names:

• File:Ebenezer_Baptist_Chapel_in_Abertillery_(4641286).jpg
• File:Abertillery,_Primitive_Mehodist_interior_(4641483a).jpg

Ebenezer chapel and the Primitive Methodist chapel were two different chapels in Abertillery, and it’s not obvious which one is the correct one (annoyingly the shape of the long windows is similar in both chapels from the exterior: 1, 2, so we can’t use that to decide). Dogfennydd (talk) 00:18, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Oh, and the primitive Methodist chapel is demolished, and the baptist chapel is significantly remodelled, so the old photos are all we have to go on, I believe. Dogfennydd (talk) 00:20, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, @Dogfennydd you can see the Ebenezer Baptist chapel interior from the 2018 memorial service, I thought it looked pretty much the as the one above, but you might want to check. See the male voice choir sections, or the minister's talk perhaps, the panels at least look very similar, but now painted. I thought they had a wide shot but can't find it now. I suppose another alternative would be to ask Lowri Newman to confirm. Annoying it is double described NLW!

I tried adding an image of Eleanor on fair use grounds but failed on upload. Be good if you could have a go! Jim Killock (talk) 11:03, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks for this: I looked earlier for videos on the chapel’s Youtube channel but didn’t come across this one! Though the interior has obviously changed a lot, I think 0:36 on the video catches the back door which is at an angle, just like in the PB Abery Martin Ridley photos. A few seconds later you can see the underside of the stairs going up to the gallery on the left of the image. That means that the labelling as the Primitive Methodist chapel is in error (I think that this is the correct PM interior). I’ll suggest a change to NLW.

Which image of Eleanor did you want to upload? Dogfennydd (talk) 12:39, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Dyma'r llun [1] - diolch! Mae un tebyg yn y fideo heyfd :) Jim Killock (talk) 13:00, 13 January 2024 (UTC)