Talk:Bayt Jibrin/GA1

GA Review

Preliminary Review

I cannot yet recommend "Bayt Jibrin" for GA status, but is at an excellent starting point. Please view the following comments. Some suggestions are necessary for the article to fulfill the necessary GA requirements, and other comments are just questions about facts, events, etc. that could be answered and cleared up. Best, Epicadam (talk) 23:01, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

General

• Clear up {{fact}} tags wherever present.

Done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• In factbox, instead of "Military assault by Jewish forces" better said "Military assault by Israeli forces" as not all Jews are Israeli.

Done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• Please use the WP:Manual of Style number formatting: Use km² instead of "sq. km." and use a "hard space" (i.e.  ) between a number and its unit of measurement. For example, "3,000 sq. km." should be written instead as "3,000 km²" (the coding should look like this, "3,000 km²"). Also, make sure Imperial/US conversions are included. This is especially important for using local/historical units like "dunams". Editors may calculate those themselves or use the {{Convert}} template (which will also autocode).

I took care of the sq. km. thing and I misread the source. It was actually "meters". I'll take care of the "dunam" issue ASAP. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• Make sure all words uncommon in English are italicized.
• Minor: Citations should come at the end of the sentence or after punctuation. For example, "The cow jumped over the moon." not "The cow jumped over the moon." or "The cow jumped over the moon."

Done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• Minor: Citations can be cleaned up to match formatting in WP:CS. Recommend that "Bilbiography" section be alphabetized. Not a GA condition, but a generally-accepted style convention.

Done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:57, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Lead

• "marked" -> market?
• "In the 1947 UN Partition Plan, Bayt Jibrin was to be allotted to the Arab state, but during the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, it was captured by Israeli forces in Operation Yoav from the defending Egyptian Army who had took control of the village at onset of the war."
  • Sentence is too long, awkward. Better, "The 1947 UN Partition Plan allotted Bayt Jibrin to the Arab state, but the town was captured from the defending Egyptian army by Israeli forces at the onset of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War."

All done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

History

• Typically not necessary to have subsection headers marking divisions in time.
• "Ginabrin was mentioned by the Roman historian Josephus in his account of the First Jewish-Roman War,[8] as being a village on one side of the "Great Plain", and was also mentioned by Roman historian Ptolemy (V, 16, 6)."
  • What is Ginabrin?
  • References typically go at the end of sentences.
  • What is "(V, 16, 6)"? If it's part of a reference, then it should be in a reference tag...

Taken care of. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• "Eleutheropolis flourished in the Roman period with the construction of several large public buildings, including ones for the administration of the city and daily life, military installations and a 3,000 sq. km. amphitheater." A 3,000 km² amphitheater? Surely that's a joke, right? I can't imagine that any building could be larger than the state of Delaware.
• "Christianity penetrated the city quickly due to its location on the crossroads of the route between Jerusalem and Gaza, whether Christian missionaries and messengers chose the Beisan road, the Hebron road or the mountain route west of Bethlehem. "
  • Awkward. Do you mean that missionaries entered the city on those roads? I don't quite understand what the second half of that sentence is trying to say.

Clarified. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• "72 disciples": may want to Wikilink this to Seventy Disciples.

Done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• "Later, in 325 CE, it became a bishop's seat with Bishop Macrinus — a partisan of Orthodox Christianity — being present at the First Council of Nicaea."
  • Strike "Later,"; it's not necessary.
  • What is "it" in reference to? The town? Currently, "it" refers back to Justus.

Done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• "Bishop Epiphanius of Salamis — who would be nominated as the Bishop of Constantia (Cyprus) — was born in Eleutheropolis in 310 CE.[10]" Isn't this just a notable person as opposed to somebody important to the history of Bayt Jibrin?

I think it's notable, but if clutters the content I'll remove it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• Consider using a block quote here: "According to the Muslim traveller al-Muqaddasi, writing in 985, Bayt Jibrin "is a city partly in the hill country, partly in the plain. Its territory has the name of Ad Darum (the ancient Daroma and the modern Dairan), and there are here marble quarries. The district sends its produce to the capital (Ar Ramlah). It is an emporium for the neighbouring country, and a land of riches and plenty, possessing fine domains. The population, however, is now on the decrease...."[13]"

Done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• "In May 1123, the Muslim Fatimids invaded the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem and captured Ascalon; all attempts by the Crusaders to retake the city failed."
  • 1. Fix the wikilink on Ascalon so it doesn't divert to the disambiguation page.
  • 2. Was Bayt Jibrin included as a part of Ascalon??? Or is this trying to say that Muslim armies were retaking nearby places? It's not at all clear.

Clarified --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• "In 1135, to control and reduce the influence of the the Fatimid forces in Ascalon, the Crusaders embarked on a programme of fortifying Bethgibelin, and it was entrusted to the Hospitallers.[14] They finished building a castle there in 1137.[6] Bethgibelin became an episcopal see, as appears from documents which mention at least five successive bishops. A large church was erected, which later went by the name of qal'a or "fortress" and was used by Arab families after the fall of the Kingdom of Jerusalem in 1187.[7]"
  • So... The town was fortified by the Crusaders, then they held it for 50 years, and then the town was invaded by Saladin during the fall of the Kingdom of Jerusalem? It's not clear here either. It might be best to mention the creation of the episcopal see before here, because at the moment it sort of reads like the Crusaders took the city, lost it (possibly), then recovered it, built defenses, then made it a "see", then lost the city to Saladin or one of his generals?
  • Make clear who took over the city: Saladin or Sultan Rukn ad-Din Baybars. The way the article reads now, it sounds like both of them took over the city...

Yes, it was very unorganized, but I think I clarified it. The source mentions nothing on Saladin or the year 1187. Al Ameer son (talk) 06:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• "A Muslim mystic, Muhammad Ibn Nabhan al-Jibrini, set up a hermitage in Bay Jibrin and died there in 1343.[6]"
  • How is he important to the town? Or is he just another notable person (if he indeed is notable at all).

You'll have to wait for Huldra's response on this. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• "In 1596, Bayt Jibrin was a village in the Ottoman nahiya of Gaza (liwa´ of Gaza), with a population of 275. "
  • So... there's a 300-year jump in history? Nothing happened between the end of the 13th and beginning of the 16th centuries?
  • Make sure that "nahiya" and "liwa'" are italicized, as they are not English words. Also, since they are not "wikilinked", provide an explanation of what each word means.

Unfortunately, the sources I used mention nothing particularly notable about this 300-year period. Although I do know they're were no other empires to control the area. It went to the Ottomans right after the Mamluks. Maybe sources that Huldra and Ashley used have info on this period. And I took care of the nahiya and liwa problem. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:48, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• "In 1838 the American scholar Edward Robinson visited the place, and identified it with ancient Eleutheropolis."
  • Again, too vague. It's not a good idea to start off sections using imprecise terms like "the place", since what place the article is talking about hasn't yet been established. Readers shouldn't be left to assume what the article is trying to say.

Taken care of. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• "In the mid-late 19th century, the family became involved in Ottoman attempts to crush the local leaders in the Hebron region."
  • Why were the Ottomans attempting to crush local leaders? Were they trying to resist Ottoman rule?

Clarified. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• The paragraph starting "In 1855, the newly appointed Ottoman Governor (Pasha)..." is a total mess. It seems like certain pieces of information that are quoted need not be and other pieces of information that should be aren't. Do not leave quotations to stand on their own unless in a block quote; they should be introduced first. I've attempted to rewrite the paragraph:

"In 1855, the newly appointed Ottoman Governor of the Jerusalem district, Kamil Pasha, exerted a more serious effort to subdue the district's rebellious Hebron region, which included Bayt Jibrin. Pasha and his army marched towards Hebron in July 1855, and took an oath of loyalty from the local shaykhs, including those under the rule of Muslih al-´Azza in Bayt Jibrin.[22] Muslih himself, however, did not appear. Kamil Pasha asked the British consul in the area, James Finn, to act as an envoy and arrange a meeting with Muslih. Finn sent his vice-consul to assure Muslih of his safety in Hebron and convinced him to meet with Pasha. Muslih was well-received in Hebron and returned to Bayt Jibrin escorted by twenty of the Pasha´s men. Kamil Pasha soon came to Bayt Jibrin to settle the terms of his agreement with Muslih, collect taxes owed by the town, and settle any political arrangements between the Ottoman administration and the local leaders.[23]"

I used your revised version. So, done. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

• "Bayt Jibrin stood on the edge of Jabal al-Khalil and was well-concealed and well-protected. In the middle of the locality stood the two-story stone house of the shaykh. The remains of the Crusader fortress still served for defensive purposes.[24] The Swiss writer Konrad Furrer was very impressed by the "castle" or "manor," as well as by the shaykh of Bayt Jibrin, when he visited in 1863. According to the shaykh, he was in command of 16 villages and was pledged "to provide as many as 2,000 men to the government if necessary."[25]"
  • I don't think this information is necessary either; this is more information about the men themselves than about the town...

You'll have to wait for Huldra's response. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I have reworded it; in general Western travellers often provided very valuable information about the ME during the period. The problem about Bayt Jibrin and the Azza family, is that their history has not been the subject of a modern comprehensive historical dissertation, ( unlike, say, the Rashidis, or Ha'il ) ...to "weed out", so to speak, the "orientalist" views. Therefore, the different travellers view can only be provided more or less direct. But I do not understand why you wanted "according to the shaykh, he was in command of 16 villages and was pledged "to provide as many as 2,000 men to the government if necessary" cut out...it gives a picture of the area/people the "lords of Bayt Jibrin" ruled over, and knowing that the larger the area the local lords ruled over, the larger the prestige/importance of the town; surely this is important? Huldra (talk) 02:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• "H. B. Trisram writes that in 1864 he encountered a "Mohammed Isa" at Bir-es-Seba. "Mohammed Isa" told Trisram that his elder brother, Jellah, Shaykh of Bayt Jibrin, "had been seized by the Pasha, as Mohammed said, to extort money on false accusations of treason, and under promise of safe conduct had been banished to Cyprus; where he had been at once beheaded, and all his property confiscated. Mohammed, on hearing the news had retired into the wilderness; and the authorities had thereupon seized his family and all his possessions. [..] he had naturally become [..].. the nucleus of all disaffected, till the band he could muster now reached 4,000 men."[26]"
  • What is this? It doesn't make any sense. What is a "Mohammed Isa"? I don't understand what it has to do with anything. The next section just skips to 100 years later. How about a mention of the British mandate before jumping into the 1948 war?

I think I clarified this. --Al Ameer son (talk) 06:46, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, it is useful to have the article read by people who do not usually edit in the ME area...we "regulars" are so accustomed (and often frustrated!) with all the different translations of the same name...so we take it "automatically" that other readers will understand that "Isa" and "Azza" are the same name..;-) Huldra (talk) 02:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

• "During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, Bayt Jibrin became a front-line village after the second phase of the war, ending on July 18."
  • What does "second phase of the war, ending on July 18" mean?

Clarified. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:35, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

• "In his report on September 16, United Nations Security Council mediator Count Folke Bernadotte suggested trading the Negev to the Arabs in exchange for the Western Galilee, a suggestion which the Israeli political and military leadership found unacceptable, and which made them focus their attention on the south."
  • Is Bayt Jibrin in the Negev? What affect would this have had on Bayt Jibrin and why was that plan unacceptable? Why did refusing the plan make the Israelis focus on the south? Focus on the south how? Militarily?

I don't know why it was "unacceptable", we'll wait for Huldra's response. But I clarified whether their attention was military. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:35, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

• "In October the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) launched a new offensive, named Operation Yoav on the 15-16."
  • Don't say just "15-16"; provide actual dates.

Clarified. --Al Ameer son (talk) 01:35, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

• "Panic flight therefore started from Bayt Jibrin on October 19, after Israeli Air Force bombing."
  • Panic flight meaning "mass exodus"? "Refugees"?
• On October 23, there was a UN-imposed ceasefire, however, within days there were a succession of IDF "nibbles" at the Arab-occupied areas. More villagers fled from Bayt Jibrin following an IDF raid on the neighbouring police fort on the night of October 24. On the 27th, IDF units then occupied Bayt Jibrin and its police fort.[30]
  • What does "nibbles" mean? Attacks? If so, make clear whether they were unprovoked or spurred by fighting. See WP:NPOV
  • Don't use "27th", only "October 27".
• "In 1949, the Jewish town of Beit Guvrin was founded on the former town's lands.[3]"
  • On the town's lands or did people actually occupy formerly Arab buildings, homes, etc.? If Beit Guvrin is not founded directly on the old city of Bayt Jibrin, how far away is the settlement?

Everything taken care of here except that last part about Beit Guvrin.

Geography

• Again, just make sure the numbers and units fulfill WP:Mos requirements and that proper conversions to universally-recognizable units are included.

Done.

Culture

• This section is more about clothing than about the actual culture of Bayt Jibrin. It's best to just say that the town produced embroidery and describe when it was made in the village and out of what, and why garments from Bayt Jibrin are particularly noteworthy. However, the information about the garments themselves should be left to their own article, where they can be described in greater detail, etc.
• Consider scaling down the picture/make it a thumbnail photo... it's quite imposing on the page at present.

All done by Gilabrand. --Al Ameer son (talk) 18:37, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Secondary review

Ok. Assuming that the article is stable upon final review, here are the final issues that I think could (and should) be addressed before GA status:

General

• I took care of the area conversion issues with the convert template. I think a first reference to dunums is appropriate, but from that point forward the rest of the figures should be given in metric and imperial/US units. Also, I didn't really think of it at the time, but "square miles" is not a typical unit for expressing area, so I converted to acres instead, where appropriate.
• The article still needs general copy editing as punctuation is missing, references are still remain improperly cited (URLs do not count as sufficient references). Great tool for easy reference generation: [1]
• New {{fact}} tags have to be addressed.
• "Edit war" issues still have to be addressed. Clearly there are still some issues about what information should be provided. Unless those can be resolved, the article will fail on the stability issue alone.
• There are still some key terms that area left undefined. Don't make people guess or rely on Wikilinks to provide information. If a person/place/thing might be unfamiliar, best to provide a brief description in the text so readers don't have to hunt for it.

Lead

• The lead is still too long. As per WP:LEAD guidelines, only articles of considerable size should have 3- or 4-paragraph leads... the second paragraph can probably be reduced and combined with the third to provide a succinct history, excluding most of the names and items like the Arab legend, etc.

Etymology

• I made a slight change here to make sure that people understand that the town was in fact not Greek, but just had a Greek name.

History

• Subsections should still not be used. Please see other GA status articles and note that their histories do not include subsections.
• "In 1596, Bayt Jibrin was a village in the Ottoman nahiya(subdistrict) of the liwa´ (district) of Gaza, with a population of 275. The inhabitants paid taxes on wheat, barley and sesame crops, as well as goats and beehives.[21]"
  • How did the area fall into Ottoman control from the Mamluk Sultanate?? It doesn't say!
• The history section still doesn't flow. I tried to make a number of changes to it, but it's still not reading as a history of the place. Rather, sections still read like a jumble of disjointed facts (or, in this case, legends) that make the history confusing and generally detract from the overall quality of the article.
• Changes made to the edited text like this: "In the 11th century, Crusaders invaded the Levant and created the Kingdom of Jerusalem in the Levant was a city, which they called "Bethgibelin"." are not helpful as the sentence has been made unreadable. The editors have to decide how to deal with changes that make the prose of the article decidedly worse-off. Also, what is "the Levant"? Quickly describe the area by saying that the Levant is another term for the Middle East, and WP:WIKIFY things! Just because the editors know the key terms does not mean that readers will be able to understand it!

Geography

• "The sixth century Madaba Map shows a domed, colonnaded circular building that may represent the amphitheater in Eleutheropolis, which was turned into a public building with a roofed portico during the Byzantine period.[16]"
  • Give a brief description of what the Madaba map is; otherwise, it seems like this section is just sitting here on its own with no real connection to the rest of the article.

Culture

• I think this section is largely okay now. Before, it was just too long with too much info about the embroidery itself. Like I said before, it doesn't appear that any of this information has

Final action

• Unfortunately this article still does meet GA criteria. Of the most pressing concerns is finding and properly citing sources for the text, especially the history section, and rewriting it for better clarity and flow. The edit war issue simply must be resolved and I would ask editors those editors involved to provide their changes (with an explanation) on the discussion page first so that a consensus on the issue can be reached. Once an issue has achieved consensus, all editors must agree to leave the changes as-is, or contest the issue again at a later date. This is imperative for achieving GA status. I will leave the article on hold until the week-long revision period expires. If the issues with the article are still unresolved by then, the article will auto fail GAN. Best, Epicadam (talk) 15:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

GA Fail

Hi all. The week review period is up and it still appears that there is still a good deal of work being performed on the article. For this reason, I believe the article fails the stability requirement of WP:GACR. When the article is in final form, please renominate! The article has come a long way since its original nomination and I'd really like to see it get up to GA status. Remember: there's no waiting period necessary to renominate, but since this article has had some stability issues, it may be best to wait for a few days after the last major edits to relist at GAN. Best, epicAdam (talk) 15:17, 27 June 2008 (UTC)