Talk:Battles of the Donetsk suburbs

Delete page and merge with Eastern Ukraine campaign

There are several reasons this article should be deleted, or at the very least merged, and they have to do with the extreme lack of notability, sourcing, and the original content of the article.

There are very few sources, both traditional and even social media, regarding the battles at Pervomaiske and Vodyane. Most mentions of the towns are in Ukrainian general staff reports or mentions in the ISW (which are just agglomerations of Russian and Ukrainian media Telegram channels of dubious reliability), and there is only one article independently regarding the battle of Vodyane, which only describes a single day worth of fighting. There are no articles about Pervomaiske on Russian, Ukrainian, or English media. The very few articles mentioning the town are from the time when Pisky was still being fought over in August, and after it's capture there is little to no media coverage.

On locations, Pervomaiske and Vodyane seem to be cherry-picked to promote a pro-Russian narrative. In the original edit (check history), dates, locations and sources were chosen to promote only Russian successes, and subsequent context was added each time claiming how each attack was the beginning of an encirclement in Avdiivka or other areas, along with unsourced claims that both sides were not putting as much manpower into the area due to the battle of Bakhmut (while this may be true, it was unsourced and mentioned multiple times). Regarding location, all sources detailing locations of fighting in Pervomaiske claim that fighting occurred at the Repubblica Mist bridge, which is directly on the city border with Pisky. While there is evidence of fighting in the town from both Russian and Ukrainian claims, little is known about anything. In Vodyane, claims of control shift with each article (which is usual, battles and wars are fluid and unpredictable), but it is impossible to document or source anything beyond shifting claims. Not to mention, almost every article mentioning the two towns mentions Opytne, Nevelske, and even Pisky. By cherry-picking Pervomaiske and Vodyane, which are no different than the other three towns in terms of notability and coverage, the article narrows in on two towns and leaves apart the broader scope of the campaign, better reflected in the Eastern Ukraine campaign.

Overall, there is simply no evidence that the battles of Pervomaiske and Vodyane are any more or less notable than battles for other towns nearby, the lack of evidence for sourcing in the towns aside from claims and shelling reports, and the pro-Russian bias and cherry-picking highly visible in older edits of the page discredit the necessity of the page standalone and better merit it's existence as a footnote in the Eastern Ukraine campaign. Jebiguess (talk) 00:34, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

• Support. Super Ψ Dro 09:36, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

I want to thank you for adding to this article and I think that it should not be deleted or drowned in the Eastern Ukrainian camping article because you have arranged it nicely and put it together with the right initial sources. I was convinced that the fighting began much later than the fall of Peski. Pesky was captured by the Russians on August 13 or at the latest on August 24. However, I do not remember the fighting in August and September. I'm only now seeing your sources that the battles for Pervomaiske and Vodyane started immediately after the first announcements that Russian forces had captured Pesky on August 13th and 14th. I see that the fighting started on August 15 with the first attempts to break through. I don't have a pro-Russian narrative anywhere, and that's where you're wrong, but in the absence of earlier sources, I couldn't find any news from the Ukrainian and Anglo-Saxon media about these two strategically important places that separate Avdiyivka and Marinka, for which painstaking battles have been going on for more than a year. That Russia is a stronger and greater military power than Ukraine is as clear to mentally retarded people as the USA is much stronger than Mexico, Turkey than Greece or India than Pakistan. Well, now why is Russia struggling so much over these four or five small towns (if we add Vuhledar) that is already up for discussion, but these two small places deserve attention and a separate article considering the length of the fighting and the huge losses on both sides. That Ukraine's losses are far greater than Russia's is a logical thing because Russia has far more weapons and one of the largest military industries in the world, side by side with the US. Compared to the USA and Russia, Europe is a military dwarf. :) Baba Mica (talk) 16:18, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Article of deleting

The deletion article is no longer needed as the article has been edited and compiled. Therefore, it is not necessary to delete the article because this article is very important, and the battles for these two places are fundamentally separate from the battles for Marinka and Avdiyivka, but they are strategically important for the Ukrainian defense and the Russian attack on Marinka and Avdiyivka. Baba Mica (talk) 08:00, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I agree Danielg532 (talk) 01:44, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Avdiivka

Isn't this just the outer sectors of the Battle of Avdiivka, what the ISW calls the "Avdiivka-Donetsk City line" in its assessments? When I google "donetsk suburbs" I get very few results, and no one other than Wikipedia seems to call the "Battle" by that name. HappyWith (talk) 13:51, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Also note how the ISW groups together the info about Avdiivka and Vodiane and Pervomaiske, mentioning the latter two settlements in sentences about operations “in the Avdiivka area” [1] and “the Avdiivka-Donetsk City front”. [2] HappyWith (talk) 13:59, 20 June 2023 (UTC)