Talk:Battle of Zornoza

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Military history: European / French / Spanish / Napoleonic era

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Pancorbo or Zornoza?

From Pancorbo to Amorebieta there are 100 kilometers. In Spanish is known as batalla de Zornoza, and Zornoza (Basque script: Zornotza) is Amorebieta-Echano (Amorebieta-Etxano). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.41.241.112 (talk) 13:13, 29 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Planning to rename and move the article

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Vpab15 (talk) 19:46, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Battle of Pancorbo (1808) → Battle of Zornoza

@83.41.241.112: @Albrecht: @Filelakeshoe: @Ruedi33a: @Djmaschek: @Adamdaley:

I agree with what was said by 83.41.241.112 above under the header of “Pancorbo or Zornoza?”

Pancorbo cannot be correct. We all know that the battle took place somewhere between Bilbao and Durango. Pancorbo is approximately 70-71 kilometers away from either Bilbao or Durango.

Chandler is the only historian that I have seen that uses the word Pancorbo when describing the battle. The only coordinating reference made to the location by Chandler is the statement that Blake's army was straggling “hesitantly eastward from Reynosa through Bilbao” when he was attacked.

I can cite four other references that refer to the battle as the “Battle of Zornoza” and place the battle closer to Bilbao and/or Durango. Two are already shown as references for the article and I will add two additional references. To wit:

1) The German language Military-historical War Lexicon (1618-1905) makes no mention of Pancorbo, but refers to the event as simply a place where armed forces met (as opposed to battled). The lexicon calls the location Zornoza and equates it to Durango. It describes the location as a village in Biscay Spain, 16 kilometers east of Bilbao. See page 632.

2) Digby Smith in The Napoleonic Wars Data Book calls the military action a “clash” and places it at Zornoza (now Amorebieta). Measuring by means of Google Earth, I place Amorebieta approximately 17 kilometers southeast of Bilbao. Digby Smith describes the site as a village in the northern Spanish mountains about 12 kilometers east of the fortified Biscayan port of Bilbao at the junction of Routes 634 and 6315. Digby Smith makes no mention of Pancorbo. See pages 268-269.

3) Colonel Nick Lipscombe (chairman of Peninsular War 200 (now dissolved), the official organisation established in 2008 to commemorate the bicentenaries of the battles and sieges of the Peninsular War 1808–1814) places the battle at Zornoza in The Peninsular War Atlas. Colonel Lipscombe places the battle on the road between Durango and Bilbao and provides a full page map of the engagement. Colonel Lipscombe makes no mention of Pancorbo. See pages 66-69.

4) J. Rickard, author of the comprehensive Military History Encyclopedia on the Web describes the action as the Battle of Zornoza. http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/battles_zornoza.html J. Rickard describes the battle as taking place south of Bilbao in the vicinity of the heights of San Martin which borders the Bilbao-Durango road. J. Rickard makes no mention of Pancorbo.

With these references as my sources. I believe that I have shown that Pancorbo is incorrect and that Zornoza (now Amorebieta) is correct. So I plan now to edit and amend the article and the geographic coordinates. I will add two new references (the Lipscombe Atlas, and the Rickard Military History website) along with appropriate citations. Finally, I plan to rename the article (a Wikipedia move) the Battle of Zornoza.

Anyone disagree?

Thanks VFF0347 (talk) 01:09, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Charles Oman (Peninsular War Vol. I, p. 407) calls the battle Zornoza, so Zornoza it is. Djmaschek (talk) 04:03, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. Ruedi33a (talk) 06:15, 1 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ping, my only contribution to this article was a fixing a cut&paste move as an uninvolved admin so I'll leave the discussion on the title to others. If this page is moved to Battle of Zornoza, what should happen to the disambiguation page Battle of Pancorbo and its other article which is now at Battle of Pancorbo (816)? Is this battle commonly enough referred to as "Battle of Pancorbo" to warrant the disambiguation page, or should the other one be treated as the primary topic (which would mean we could delete the dab page)? Feel free to ping me again if you need help with deletes/moves in this area. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 08:24, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not an expert at disambiguation or redirection, but maybe we leave the current disambiguation page as it exists today, but create a redirect that sends anyone searching for the Battle of Pancorbo (1808) to the renamed article Battle of Zornoza. That way someone searching for the generic Battle of Pancorbo will be sent to the disambiguation page where they can make their choice of the two current battles. Then if they pick the Battle of Pancorbo (1808) they will be sent to the renamed (and more commonly referred to) Battle of Zornoza. Senior editors what do you think? Is that how it should be handled? I assume that the bots will also keep us honest. Thanks, VFF0347 (talk) 23:12, 2 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Wbm1058: Can we consider the discussion on this issue concluded? May I move the page and correct the text and Geo coordinates of the article? Thanks VFF0347 (talk) 02:59, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
After a quick look, I have a question. Zornoza or Zornotza? Zornoza is a surname, is the battle named after someone? While Zornotza redirects to Amorebieta-Etxano... oh, I see the added "t" makes it a Basque word. Usually you wait for an independent reviewer to close, unless the consensus is unanimous, preferably with more than a couple participants. – wbm1058 (talk) 03:49, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.