Talk:Battle of Westerplatte

Sucharski

Don't sell people bullshit like this in the article. Do you know word "propaganda"? Sucharski national hero should be remember like a coward. Read some facts and know that he was the one who encourage soldiers to fight.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.42.26.64 (talk) 18:31, September 1, 2007‎ (UTC)

That's true. Major Sucharski wasn't any hero. Its soldiers were. Some polish books wrote that. Apparently, according to witnesses - some polish Westerplatte veterans - major Sucharski has break down and his officers had to support him. Finally they opposed to surrender. --Matrek (talk) 23:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Pyrrhic victory

As I stated in my edit summary, estimated total casualties of around 3-400 men, out of a force of several thousand (when including naval participants, etc., not just the 3,500 ground troops) is definitely not a pyrrhic victory. It has therefore been removed. Parsecboy (talk) 04:36, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone had added pyrrhic there again. As Parsecboy here states battle was just too small. Wehrmacht wasn't exactly crippled or devastated by this battle. --Ukas (talk) 00:34, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Schleswig Holstein ostrzeliwuje Westerplatte 39 09 01 b.jpg

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I added source regarding German murder of Kazimierz Rasinski

The murder of POW Kazimierz Rasinski by the Germans is now sourced.--Molobo (talk) 00:15, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Rasiński

Actually there is a version he became a willing collaborator. --RamboKadyrov (talk) 12:54, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Dabrowski as de facto commander

I recently added a "citation needed" to Dabrowski being the de facto commander of most of the battle. This is not because I disagree with the information, but because I do not know a source that confirms it. If any editor could have access to a source and provide a reference, that would be great. I apologize that I do not know much about Polish history or have access to such sources. Thank you. Ripberger (talk) 02:53, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

How long does one normally wait for citations before the uncited claims are removed or at least recharacterized? As I understand it, there is a dispute about the historical facts of the matter of Sucharski's breakdown and who was in command. Without historical evidence this article should be edited to reflect the nature of the controversy and should not come across as settled history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.238.157.245 (talk) 18:27, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Casualties

The section subtitled Casualties needs to be reworked.

It reads: "The exact figures of German losses remains unknown, but are now often estimated to be in range of 200-400 killed and wounded or sometimes more (for example an estimate of 300 killed and 700 wounded, which was official in the times of the People's Republic of Poland). Some of them might be actually hit by friendly fire, in particular from the battleship which was initially anchored too close to its target. About 40-50 German troops were reportedly killed.[11]"

It comes across weasely and unencyclopedic. Beyond the weasely terminology, you have too wide of variations in the German casualty totals. It would seem highly unlikely that in the twenty-first century, accurate and unbiased figures aren't available. I regret to say that the official version from the People's Republic of Poland would not be the best source to use. Dr. Dan (talk) 02:32, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

No need to do that. Information is backed by sources and the line already reads exact figures of German losses remains unknown. But thanks for the effort anyway.--Jacurek (talk) 02:45, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

It's "backed" by two different sources with two different conclusions. Perhaps the "exact" figures are known. This was the point of my comment. Thanks for yours. Now perhaps someone else out there has some other opinions or information. If they do, that would be great because there's always a need to improve articles. Dr. Dan (talk) 03:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

We know some about german casualties on Westerplatte - german Marine Sturmkompanie (from Kriegsmarine) lost 16 KIA, 65 WIA and 29 injured - together 110 casualties (most of them at September 1st)

Different sources (Schleswig Holstein ship's doctor E.Heinsius) gave some similar number - 13 KIA, 62 heavy wounded, 11 moderate wounded and 29 light wounded. 4 of the wounded - died of their wounds. So - together were 115 casualties from Marine Kompanie.

According soldier from Marine Kompanie, Heinz Denker - were 127 casualties (incl. 16 KIA) at September 1st.

We know that in next days on Westerplatte were casualties from SS Heimwehr Danzig, SS-Wachsturmbann "Eimann", Danzig Polizei, pioneer battalion...

Inspiration

The article sates that..."The heroic defense of Westerplatte served as an inspiration for the country (Poland) when the successful German advances continued elsewhere in Poland"... seems more probably the sentiment felt today, rather than in the first week of September 1939. How and to whom were the events that were transpiring during this "battle" made available to the Polish nation? Just who was inspired by this battle during the German Invasion, a period of great chaos, which ended quite quickly? I believe a source for it has been requested. Dr. Dan (talk) 02:17, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

"Just who was inspired by this battle during the German Invasion" hmm lets see, I think that would probably be the Polish citizens who were listening the Radio broadcasts which described how Westerplatte was holding against many times numericaly supperior Nazi assaulters. Does that sound reasonable? Loosmark (talk) 04:58, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes it sounds reasonable but rather improbable. In the short time that Poland was crushed and the ensuing chaos of war that was occurring, do you have any evidence that the progress of the "Battle of Westerplatte" was being broadcast on Polish radio? Or that this "inspired" the nation? It seems more likely that these are sentiments that developed after the war. Does that sound reasonable? Dr. Dan (talk) 14:57, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Dr. Dan do you know how was the first 1st armored brigade of the Polish Army formed in the Soviet Union in 1943 called? Heroes of Westerplatte. [1] I think that pretty much dismantles your theory that "these sentiments developed after the war".Loosmark (talk) 17:55, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Loosmark, "gdzie Rzym, a gdzie Krym"? Or for the benefit of our English speaking friends, "What does any of this have to do with the price of soap in North Dakota? And please don't bring up the Stalinist regime to defend Polish sentiments (three years or so after the fact). I'm well aware of the "Bohaterów Westerplatte" (heroes of Westerplatte) and the "Bohaterów 18-tego Stycznia" (heroes of January 18th) and all the rest of it, ad nauseam. In fact, I believe at the same time he established this brigade he was telling the world that the notorious liars were the perpetrators of Katyn, or at least some of his apparatchiks were telling the world that. If you want believe that the Polish nation was inspired by this battle while it was occurring, fine with me. I don't. In fact, I don't want to believe that Polskie Radio would be so stupid as to broadcast that the brave defenders of Westerplatte (and they were heroic, yes) were "Still Fighting" on a daily basis for seven days. Such stupidity would bring their valiant efforts to the attention of their enemy and hasten their defeat. Hmm? Anyway these theories of ours are just chatter, proving nothing. There's still a request for a citation. You should be able to find some tygodnik, someplace, somewhere, that this "battle" inspired the Polish nation. But let's be honest, that didn't happen between September 1st and September 7th 1939, while it was happening. Too much else was going on. Dr. Dan (talk) 01:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Dr Dan I think you need to clarify your position a little bit, before you stated that it seems more likely that these sentiments developed after the war. Now you say that it didn't happen during 1st and 7th September. After war and not between 1st to 7th 39 are two different things. Loosmark (talk) 18:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Loosmark, I'm happy to clarify my position for you, again. Perhaps it's a matter of your not understanding the English language. The article states..."The heroic defense of Westerplatte served as an inspiration for the country when the successful German advances continued elsewhere in Poland and nowadays is still regarded as a symbol of the invasion"... and that is my point, "...served as an inspiration for the country when the successful German advances continued elsewhere" refers to then, (September 1-7 1939), not 1943, not today. What time frame are you referring to? Dr. Dan (talk) 03:05, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Dr. Dan, I have a nasty suspicion that this is not about my not understanding of the English language (seems that you have me for some sort of wikipedia Borat). I know what the article says however somewhere above you stated the following: "It seems more likely that these are sentiments that developed after the war.". As far as I know the war ended in 1945. PS thanks for showing me how to do bold+italic, quite cool. Loosmark (talk) 03:38, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

(OD) You're welcome. So does the the statement belong in the article or not? Specifically..."The heroic defense of Westerplatte served as an inspiration for the country when the successful German advances continued elsewhere in Poland"... The request for a citation has not been fulfilled, yet. There must be something, somewhere, some newspaper clipping, some magazine article, some lecture, some archive from Polskie Radio, that verifies that statement. Then we can all move on to something else. "Wikipedia Borat", no. Dr. Dan (talk) 04:08, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, as one of the biggest history experts on wikipedia, I have many things to do and not enough time at this time to look deeply into the issue. However using a secret and very sophisticated method of mine, typing "Westerplatte holding + Polish radio" into Google, I've managed to find the following webpage: [2]. I quote from the webpage: "I heard shots from the post office and the Westerplatte peninsula. There were shots everywhere in Danzig on Sept. 1," said Elzbieta Marcinkowska-Szuca, who was born in 1914 and lived in Danzig - now called Gdansk - during the historic invasion. "Polish radio in Warsaw reported that the defense of the Westerplatte was holding up, but we were still afraid.". So for one thing I think we solved one issue, the Polish Radio did indeed report about Westerplatte as I have suspected. Loosmark (talk) 04:27, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

If I had known that you were one of the biggest history experts on Wikipedia, I would have not wasted your time with this thread (although it really wasn't addressed to you specifically to begin with). If you had included the reminiscences of "Elzbieta Marcinkowska-Szuca" in the first place, we could have rapidly moved on. "Elzbieta Marcinkowska-Szuca" pretty much takes care of it. And seriously, I'm glad she stayed home that day. One issue we haven't solved is whether Polish Radio was continually transmitting the goings on of the battle for a week on a daily basis, in order to inspire the Polish Nation. Don't you think that would be the height of stupidity as it would cause the Germans to intensify their assault? Or do you doubt the Germans were listening to Polish Radio? Do forgive me for asking, but as one of the biggest history experts on Wikipedia, do you have any idea how many radio sets existed in Poland in 1939? Dr. Dan (talk) 04:56, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Polish Radio making the Nazis intesifying their asault? hmm I don't know about that, I'm pretty sure the Nazis were already green from anger, not for nothing they were calling the battleship and Stuka divebombers and whatnot for support. I don't think they needed the Polish Radio as an extra motivator. On the other hand since the Nazi music pretty much sucked maybe they indeed listened the Polish Radio. I am only making educating guesses because I have never researched the Nazi radio-listening habbits. And Dr.Dan history experts don't count radio sets, but maybe such data is available in some archive, radio sets censuses were quite popular back then. Loosmark (talk) 05:47, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, Loosmark, that I couldn't get back to you sooner. I don't doubt the Abwehr was monitoring Polskie Radio during the invasion. Seems probable. As for whether the Germans were "green" from anger over Westerplatte seems unlikely. Then again maybe Hitler was chewing a carpet over the matter per "Teppichfresser" etc. [3], but that too is unlikely seeing how well the rest of the invasion was going. I was unaware that you also had some expertise concerning musicology, specifically ethnomusicology. It's a field that interests me. Rather than take up space here with that subject, way too off topic, I'll visit your talkpage with some thoughts on your other comments. As for this discussion regarding "Inspiration" I'm still not able to locate a good source on the Polish radio census circa 1939. Any help would be appreciated. Dr. Dan (talk) 02:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

B-class review

This article is currently at start/C class, but could be improved to B-class if it had more (inline) citations. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 22:08, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Обстрел Вестерплятте.1939.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:22, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Westerplatte Sucharski sabre.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:36, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Casualties incorrect

The current casualty count in the article stands at "16-50 Germans dead" and cites a source. This source, in Polish, reads that 16 Kriegsmarine alone died. This doesn't count the Wehrmacht forces involved in the action, who suffered more casualties. The number of dead should be around 50 at the minimum, not 16. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8804:985:6800:D0E:6018:54C3:E960 (talk) 22:13, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

That's probably a valid point. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:45, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Propaganda

Is this a propaganda page for Polish nationalists? I suggest using Polish books by Polish authors unacceptable on the English-language Wikipedia. There are more balanced assessments available in English. 2A00:23C4:B63A:1800:B12E:460B:9C74:16D2 (talk) 16:47, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

ENGVAR

This early revision of the article seems to use British English. It seems now to be written in a mixture of dialects. Any objection on restandardising on UK English, per WP:RETAIN? John (talk) 19:53, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

I've adjusted the article accordingly. John (talk) 22:21, 2 September 2022 (UTC)