Talk:Battle of Toretsk

Interwiki

Needs to be linked with ru:Бои за Торецк. 82.36.165.47 (talk) 17:25, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

 Done Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 01:49, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

How do we know the Russian military's objectives here?

Hello to all my respected fellow editors. I am attempting to verify, through reliable sources, this statement which is asserted in the lede:

The battle of Toretsk is an ongoing engagement...for control of the city of Toretsk.

I understand it may seem self-evident, but which sources have said explicitly that the objective of this Russian offensive is to take control over the city of Toretsk?

Indeed, ISW of 27 June characterized the Russian offensive in the Toretsk area as diversionary, assessed that the Russian force strength in the area was very likely insufficient for an operation to seize the town [Toretsk], and in fact speculated that Russian forces may... have no intention of making significant tactical gains in the Toretsk direction and may hope that offensive operations in the area will apply pressure on Ukrainian forces along a wider front in Donetsk Oblast and facilitate gains in the Chasiv Yar and Avdiivka directions.

Hopefully this helps demonstrate that the assertion that this battle/engagement/offensive has the definitive aim of taking control over Toretsk is not by any means a sure thing.

Ping @Flemmish Nietzsche. Thanks all. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 18:22, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

@SaintPaulOfTarsus I don't think there's any doubt (except from that one ISW statement) that Russian forces are trying to capture Toretsk itself; all media outlets specify, or at least imply, when mentioning the offensive that the main goal is to capture the city.

Some articles mentioning such goal: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5]

In a RFE/RL article (which has questionable reliability but is just repeating what someone said), for example, a Ukrainian colonel says that "Toretsk is likely the primary objective for Russian commanders right now [...] because capturing it would give Russia control over a wider urban area stretching along the western edges of the Donetsk region."

Also, why would Russia increase shelling and attacks on Toretsk itself so much if the intention was not to capture it? Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 18:32, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

@Flemmish Nietzsche: Thank you for sharing these URLs. In particular, Kyiv Post and the RFE/RL quote you mentioned demonstrate conclusively that your view is shared by Ukrainian military commanders. I would still object to this being written in wiki voice in the lede but I think it would be perfectly appropriate with a qualifier something like according to Ukrainian military officials.

Regarding Reuters, Deutsche Welle, and New York Times #2, unless there is something I'm missing, if there is any speculation here regarding the Russian military's objectives, I think it is implied too subtly and vaguely to be authoritative here. Similarly I do not see NYT #1 as necessarily authoritative or holding the same weight as the others if it is only that image caption.

Your last sentence looks to me like begging the question. A plan to capture Toretsk is probably the most logical explanation if we were to apply Occam's razor here, but I encourage you to keep an open mind and not to jump to conclusions when it comes to the potential objectives of ongoing military operations. There is always the possibility of an elaborate feint or a maneuver like the one described in the ISW quote I included above. But at the end of the day, we should follow the RS and reduce our own personal speculation to a minimum. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 01:11, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Toretsk offensive

I propose to change article's name on Toretsk offensive like Pokrovsk offensive. This would be more correct and more in line with reality. 83.23.165.246 (talk) 15:09, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 29 August 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Procedural close (WP:RUSUKR). Mellk (talk) 18:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

---

Battle of Toretsk → Toretsk offensive – This article not only covers the Battle of Toretsk, but also the fighting in the satellite settlements and cities of Niu-York, Pivdenne, Pivnichne, Zalizne, etc. similarly to the offensive in Pokrovsk. I suggest renaming the article to Toretsk offensive as User:83.23.165.246 proposed.

~ Valentinianus I (talk) 09:19, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article renaming request

• What I think should be changed: the article name

  −

  Battle of Toretsk

  +

  Toretsk offensive

• Why it should be changed:

This article not only covers the Battle of Toretsk, but also the fighting in the satellite settlements and cities of Niu-York, Pivdenne, Pivnichne, Zalizne, etc. similarly to the offensive in Pokrovsk. There are also a couple of news sites calling it an offensive.

• References supporting the possible change:

~ Valentinianus I (talk) 06:23, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Edit requests are not for requesting page moves, nor can non extended-confirmed users (including yourself) make such move requests under WP:RUSUKR; however, I shouldn't just ignore your points; an article can cover fighting in areas surrounding a city even when titled "battle of x"; that's why the title is not "battle in Toretsk"; I see why you would want the page moved, but this is not really a large-scale offensive covering a wide area outside of the titular goal (in this case Toretsk) unlike Pokrovsk; if Russia takes Pokrovsk, the operation will likely be remembered not just for the city's capture but for the capture of the large area east of it; the situation is not the same for Toretsk, the main reason being that New York, Zalizne, Pivnichne, etc. are mostly all part of the built-up area around Toretsk in its urban agglomeration, and the same hromada at that. A page move is within the realm of possibility, as it is definitely an offensive towards Toretsk, but I would first need to see a better argument as to why a retitling is necessary. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 06:46, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I tend to agree that this event, like many others, is more commonly referred to as an offensive rather than a battle in the sources, and that this should inform the article title. SaintPaulOfTarsus (talk) 14:24, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

References

Ukrainian counteroffensive into Niu York?

Is it worth mentioning the Ukrainain counteroffensive into Niu York? It's been a recent update (9/06/2024) to the deepstatelive map, I'm aware their information is usually delayed and I haven't seen many other reliable sources cover this topic. It seems more like a clarification of the grey/red zone that was broken on deepstatelive for the past week in that Nevplivka/Niu York front. AKExusiai (talk) 10:32, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Added. this article is a reliable non-map source. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 13:41, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

> By 6 September, the situation in Niu-York had improved for Ukraine after the Azov Brigade managed to break out of a previous encirclement of their remaining controlled territory in Niu-York.

Did you even read the article? The Azov Brigade wasn't encircled and broke out, it unblocked other troops (probably the 53rd).

~< Valentinianus I (talk) >~ 09:13, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. I didn't actually read the article, as I expected it to say the same things (that Azov had been encircled and broke out) I had heard elsewhere, which definitely wasn't the best choice. Thanks. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 12:12, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Toretsk already fell

Change the lead and the other parts. GreatLeader1945 ^TALK 16:09, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Says who? Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 16:33, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

The news sources? GreatLeader1945 ^TALK 08:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Which ones? Most just say either "the city was entered only as of a couple days ago" (which is demonstrably false) and/or "the eastern outskirts have been captured" (which is likewise not a recent development). Please provide any you have found claiming that the entire city has fallen. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 15:14, 9 October 2024 (UTC)