Talk:Battle of Samara Bend

Casualties

Forgive my ignorance but the idea of there being 46,000 Mongol deaths seems rather ludicrous considering that the entire Mongol army (In the whole world) was about 150,000 at the time and all other battles on Subedei's trek around the caspian had at most 40,000 i.e. Kalka river. Surely there's been a bit of exaggeration? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.21.27.167 (talk) 19:49, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Subotai and Jebe's "reconnaissance in force" through the Caucasus and around the Caspian had about 25,000 men, maximum. Jenghiz's forces of "pure" Mongol tumens numbered around 200,000. However, the Mongols had a (revolutionary) professional army, and quality, not quantity, was the reason for their success on the battlefield. HammerFilmFan (talk) 03:52, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Possibly this underestimating of Bulgar and overstating of Mongol casualities is due to the oral form of the history, practised in the region that time. --Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 20:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Subutai had around 20000 men whit him at this point, there can be no doubt that they actually lost the battle which did happen but it was not nearly as bloody as describet, but the main vanguard of his two Tumans was annihilatet since they were caught in a vice and sourrounded, the rest of his forces retreatet in fairly good order. What the direct consequense were of this battle/ambush were that when he returned he left nothing to chance since the Bulgars had shown themself just as onerous, disiplined and good at ambush as the mongols themself (They had to be, they were sourrounded by stronger and more numeorus cultures, nations and foes), which is why the Volga Bulgars were sought out for a particulary harsh and efficient treatment, not least taken their size and numbers into account. All in all the losses that Subutai and Jeke had at this battle were more likely around 4000 than 46000, and the Bulgars substaincially less. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.81.32.8 (talk) 12:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, anon ip, but that's rubbish about the quality of the Bolgar army at this point in history. Additionally, the Bolgars were not singled out for any special treatment - they were treated the same as all adversaries - submit, pay tribute and survive - resist, and be destroyed. HammerFilmFan (talk) 03:47, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Local Oral Traditions??

Since when did Ibn al-Asir become representative of bulgar "local oral traditions" ?? The only written account for this event is from his writings and has nothing to do with "local oral traditions". Note section is total rubbish, well, though not much worse than the rest of this "article" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.154.63.92 (talk) 07:58, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

work in progress

I am adding material to this article after consultation with Professors David Morgan (author of The Mongols) and Peter Jackson (author of many books on medieval history) - John Chambers passed away May 2012 and was therefore unable for discussion on the subject. I have several sources to add and some vital corrections to be made. Please be patient until this is completed. Thank you. HammerFilmFan (talk) 01:50, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

I have completed adding information and references, and the article is no longer a 'stub.' The Russian references were never cited, but I have left them as important works that perhaps at some point another editor will use to further enhance the article. A considerable effort was made to rewrite the article (almost three years had passed and it was still a 'stub') and although I don't of course "own" it, I would appreciate that major changes be discussed here first . . . one thing that I wanted to stress in the 'background' section was the incredible series of Mongol successes throughout the expedition around the Caspian to the steppes, in order that the reader may want to balance this with the magnitude of the 'defeat' at "Samara Bend" and judge if this was a minor reverse that the generals accepted before moving on to other objectives they wished to finish before returning to Mongolia, and who may or may not have been in command of the Mongol probe there. Of course we may not speculate in 'original research' whether Jebe/Subutai/Jochi delegated this duty to a subordinate, or whether one of them actually took it "in the nose" or not, but due to the paucity of contemporary sources, much debate continues on this issue.HammerFilmFan (talk) 07:18, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

De Hartog's version of events superseded by more modern works

As stated in the article, the ENTIRE historical event of this "battle" is the very scrappy account by al-Athir, and the explanation of the "4000" by professor Jackson is noted. I am reverting, but will make a note of your cite elsewhere in the article. To date, the numbers and casualties are unknown. WHAT IS KNOWN is that after this event, the Mongols were still able to attack and inflict a huge defeat on the eastern Cumans, even killing their king (khagan) - hardly possible with only 4,000 "survivors." Samara Bend was probably little more than a skirmish, much inflated over time via oral traditions. The Mongol generals just decided they had much more profitable work to do elsewhere, and the time limits of their probe may also have been a factor in leaving the Volga Bolgars for later.HammerFilmFan (talk) 10:17, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Bulgar-Tatar victory?

Why does it say that the victory was due to Bulgars and Tatars, when Tatars were not an independent group, rather numerous subjugated people, some loyal to Bulgaria, others to the Mongol horde? - Jotaro97

This is HammerFilmFan (not logged in) - the user has been changing various statements in the article contrary to what the sources stated. I have reverted. I will be keeping a closer watch and will open an ANI case against him if he does it a third time.104.169.39.45 (talk) 12:02, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

PLEASE - DISCUSS changes here before changing

Using unscholarly sources, such as journalists' confusing of facts in online articles to garner 'attention,' and the use of the Batu-led MUCH-LATER invasion of the Volga Bolgars after the death of Jenghiz, are not relevant to THIS article - and there are no viable "Chinese sources" whatever that refers to, ANON's - the entirety of this incident in the historical record is listed - probably less even than that of Spartacus in Roman history (which is extremely sparse). There have been so many undocumented off-the-fly edits that happened while I was away and even the efforts of other professional ed's such as Kansas Bear (much thanks!) to keep this article on the track that Mr. Chambers and Mr. Jackson aided me and others so much to produce, and the original article was dreck. This may seem a tad WP:OWN but nationalist and jingoistic edits and discarding so much work on your whims is not appreciated. I stated years ago to TALK about it first. Okey-dokey? Sawright? Sawright. HammerFilmFan (talk) 01:27, 8 December 2023 (UTC)