Talk:Battle of Orewin Bridge

Unreferenced

The sole reference given is a book by Mr. Warner which must not be considered serious historical research... For this subject matter, you'll find valid papers among the publications by some of the foremost professors and lecturers of the Universities of Bangor, Aberystwyth, etc.. (R.R. Davies, Huw Pryce, etc., etc.). This battle was probably no more than an unfortunate skirmish between a handful of men. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.196.50.247 (talk) 10:45, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Quite agree, although to be fair an awful lot of imaginative details (especially numbers involved) which are not discussed by Warner, have been added, quite uncited and unreferenced. This is Wikipedia; if you have Davies's and Pryce's works to hand, be bold and edit or rewrite the article. HLGallon (talk) 12:18, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

[1]- Found this on the net. It seems to agree with a lot of the information on the page. I'm not sure how reliable it is however.--81.156.12.157 (talk) 20:05, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Sadly, it is not boldness that I am lacking, but time! Those numbers do not come from the relations of the "battle", but from well-known carried-over estimates : 7000 (sometims 8000) is the estimated total total strength of Llewelyn's army at the height of his power, 160 is the number of knights again estimated at around the same time. As his possessions were greatly diminished in 1282 (total population under his control = 20,000-25,000 at best), as some of his men had stayed behind to resist Edward's progression and as his resources were nearly exhausted (have you any idea how much provisions 7000 men and 400+ horse - counting esquires, remounts... - consume in a day?), it is obviously pure fantasy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.69.91.129 (talk) 08:25, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Bear in mind however that in the 1282 war, Llywelyn was actually more powerful than he was in the 1277 war since many of the Welsh that aided Edward in 1277 (Edward had thousands of Welsh in his army) had switched sides due to their dislike of the English rule. When Llywelyn marched southward (with a relatively compact army) he was joined by local people; men from Ceredigion joined him, local troops from Builth (led by Rhys ap Gruffydd, Llywelyn's former steward of Builth who had lost land after 1277), and also troops from northern Powys led by Llywelyn Fychan (a man who had not always been loyal to Llywelyn but was furious after his land was taken by the Royal forces, also he disliked some of the Marcher Lords and was looking for retribution). This would have really bolstered his forces in number, but they were generally poorly equipped (with spears and probably light mail) and on foot, since the Welsh generally lacked horses and supplies. The only real horsemen in the Welsh army would have been the Teulu, a small elite fighting band who were apparently 160 strong in this battle (which is more than the usual 120 in each army; some have attributed this to the fact that Llywelyn often scavenged armour and weaponry off the dead after winning battles). Although 7000+ men is probably an exaggeration, we should still consider the possibility that Llywelyn's army was several thousand strong.--81.151.114.159 (talk) 15:25, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Indeed I imagine a few thousand men is a probable figure. There is still no indication that a major battle took place, but rather a skirmish, or even a trap set for Llewelyn, lured by the Mortimer heirs (some speak of a few dozen retainers) after he had deployed his army to bolster resistance by local chieftains. Regardless, Llewelyn was in no position of power at this time : figthing had been extinguished in Deheubarth by the end of the summer, and the whole of Northeast Wales was also in the king's control before the failed landing from Anglesey. All that remained was Snodownia, Llyn, Ardudwy and Meirionydd. As for the 160 teulu, I still have to find a reliable source for this claim. That would have been the entire teulu of Gwynedd, partial at the time and furthermore split between him and Dafydd. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.69.91.129 (talk) 11:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I think there was probably more than a skirmish, since it is reported that leading nobles on the Welsh side (such as the ones I mentioned: Rhys ap Gruffydd and Llywelyn Fychan) were among the slain (and these were not present with Llywelyn when he was killed). A possibility is that Llywelyn and some of his bodyguard were ambushed/tricked (followed by Llywelyn's death) and then the Marhcer Lords gave the order to their men to attack the Welsh army. Some have debated as to whether the army routed (being leaderless and confused) or whether they surrendered and were massacred anyway. If there was no battle, then it is hard to explain the deaths of Llywelyn Fychan and Rhys ap Gruffydd (among other Welsh leaders) on the day of the battle.--86.167.179.71 (talk) 15:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Whatever may be the case, th eimportant point is to not make baseless claims. No source whatsoever mentions any number of troups, so the article should not contain any reference to this kind of information. It has to remain vague as the sources are and not provide information which is the result of litterary creation/interpolation. By the way, where are you located ? I currently reside in Southern France and therefore am unable to pop into the library of an English-language University, which is where serious info could be found to rewrite the article with proper references. Ideally, the University of Wales in Bangor, Aberystwyth, Cardiff, etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.84.109.31 (talk) 09:21, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm in Cardiff, so I'm near to all the Unis you mentioned. If I get the chance, I shall do some research on the subject. I agree that we need more accurate sources on the article, so I'll see what I can do.--86.149.230.29 (talk) 20:32, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Has anyone been able to find good sources on this "battle"? KingMoogoe (talk) 07:26, 8 December 2023 (UTC)