Talk:Battle of Niš/Archives/2013/April

Representing the sources

"During the battle, George Kastrioti Skanderbeg deserted the Ottoman army along with 300 other Albanians and started a twenty-five year long Albanian rebellion against the Ottoman Empire."

@Gaius Claudius Nero: You changed (diff) this sentence to begin with During instead of After, like KansasBear wrote in this diff. Will you please be so kind to provide quote within inline citation from "Encyclopaedia of the Muslim World" that support your claim that it was during the battle, not after the battle?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:31, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

No need. I found it myself here:

After Ottoman forces under Skanderbeg's command suffered defeat in a battle near Nis, in present- day Serbia, in 1443, the Albanian rushed to Kruje and.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:59, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

• [1] At the battle of Nish he helped Hunyadi to win an easy victory by deserting the Turks at the critical moment.
• [2] Scanderbeg having largely contributed to the triumph of the Christian armies by his premeditated false manoevres during the battle.
• [3] In battle at Nish that 3 November 1443, Skanderbeg retired his troops, deliberately causing confusion.
• [4] During the battle of Nish, in what is now Serbia, on November 10, 1443, against the Hungarian army of Janos Hunyadi, Skanderbeg ordered his army into a general retreat.
• [5] In 1443, during the battle of Nish, where the Turks were severely defeated by the Christian forces led by Hunyadi, King of Hungary, Skanderbeg, who already intended to return to his country, fought with great reserve.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:06, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Do you want to say there is consensus among scholars that it was during the battle? Did you make mistake when changing referenced sentence?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:33, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Only if you agree.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 00:24, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I do not see rational explanation for him to go from Debar to Niš only to leave the battle when it starts. The only rational explanation as far as I can see, would be that he deserted Ottoman service after the defeat, or after it was obvious that defeat is inevitable, which is practically the same as if he left the Ottoman service after the defeat. Especially taking in consideration that otherwise he probably would not be able to force Ottoman administrative official to forge sultan's letter. Besides above mentioned referenced source which claim he left the Ottoman service after the battle, there are many other sources which claim the same.

We can continue the discussion about this if you insist, but let me remind you that changing the referenced text is disruptive, especially the way you did it. Without explanation and discussion on the talk page.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:22, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I admit that I should have edited it differently and that is why I responded with those sources. I wish just to agree on a rewording since sources conflict.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:13, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

May I ask you for a favour before we continue discussion about this matter? Will you please let me know what does Harry Hodgkinson (the source you usually extensively quote) say about when Skanderbeg left the Ottoman army, during the battle or after ottoman defeat? You know that I am one of numerous users who claim that he is not RS, but I am really curious about his claim. Please be so kind to present the whole claim which begin with:"We do not know what negotiations, if any, were begun by Scanderbeg before the battle of Nis, but it is hard to believe that the son of such a father was not fully alive to the dangers and opportunities of the forthcoming battle."(Scanderbeg, 1999, page 70)--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:30, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

So you are finally saying he's RS?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:21, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

No. I clearly wrote and bolded after your question:"I am one of numerous users who claim that he is not RS". Unfortunately you again decided to avoid to reply to my question.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:39, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Date of the battles, number of the battles, leaders of the armies....

There are works which says that this battle was not held on November 28, 1443 but a few weeks before that date:

• Setton, Kenneth (1976—1984), The Papacy and the Levant, 1204-1571, vol. four volumes, American Philosophical Society, ISBN 978-0-87169-114-9, ..met up with Turkish troops between the castle of Bolvani and the city of Niš (Nish) in early November, 1443. .. {{citation}}: Check date values in: |year= (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)CS1 maint: year (link), the same work describes how Skanderbeg gained Kroja on November 28, 1443 (since he participated in the battle of Nish, that battle could not happen on the same day)
• Setton, Kenneth (1955—1990), History of the Crusades, vol. five volumes, University of Wisconsin Press, ISBN 978-0-299-04834-1, we are not sure about precise dates, but Aeneas Sylvius states that these battles all took place by November 3, 1443 {{citation}}: Check date values in: |year= (help); Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: year (link)
• E. J. Brill's first encyclopaedia of Islam 1913-1936 By M. Th. Houtsma - "In the beginning of November 1443, Turakhan Beg commanded one of the Ottoman corps in the battle against John Hunyadi.

Also, the second work (A History of the Crusades: The Impact of the Crusades on Europe) explains that there was no one major battle for Nish but five smaller: the first was a battle against small garrison in Nish and easy capture of the town, then three different battles against three Ottoman armies advancing to the Nish and fifth, fought against the remnants of all three of them (probably in January 1444 when one Ottoman general (Kasim pasha?) returned to try to defeat Hunyadi and recapture Nish, with no success).

Also, in the same work (note 35 on pages 291 and 292) the leaders of three Ottoman armies are named as: Isa Beg (probably Isa Beg Isaković taking in consideration "First Ottoman governor of Serbia was Ishak-Beg who in 1443 was replaced by Isa-Beg Isaković."), a second pasha and Turakhan Beg. That work also describes how he fled to Albania after the battle. That second pasha was described as Kasim Pasha in work "The Crusade of Varna, 1443-45" written by Colin Imber.

Based on the above informations I propose:

• to change the date of the battle to "early November"
• to add information about different battles
• to add to infobox information about leaders of Ottoman armies (Turakhan, Kasim and Isa) with Skanderbeg as co-comander (page 293).
• to improve and expand this article which is describing significant event and deserves much better article than it is.

Comments are welcome.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:23, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Babinger, Franz (1992), "Mehmed the Conqueror and His Time" - says Ishak Beg which can only be Isak-Beg, not Isa-Beg Isaković.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:49, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Skanderbeg under Kasim Pasha?

Taking in consideration the following source:

• Imber, Colin (2006), The Crusade of Varna, 1443-45, Aldershot ; Burlington (Vt.) : Ashgate, cop., p. 270, ISBN 9780754601449, OCLC 470458159, The Ottoman sources in general emphasize the disagreement and lack of cooperation between frontier Ottoman forces under Turakhan and sipahi army under Kasim {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |laydate=, |separator=, |doi-inactive-date=, |nopp=, |laysummary=, |chapterurl=, |month=, and |lastauthoramp= (help)

maybe it is safe to claim that Skanderbeg was under command of Kasim Pasha? If we take in consideration that Skanderbeg was Sanjakbey of Debar and Ottoman sipahi, he probably was under command of Kasim Pasha, not under Turakhan Beg who was commanding frontier forces which did not contain regular sipahi armies from regular Ottoman sanjaks, like Skanderbeg's force of 300 soldiers from Albania. Maybe somebody who has some sources written by contemporary historians about Skanderbeg could confirm this assumption? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:45, 6 June 2011 (UTC)