Talk:Battle of Kursk/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Jonas Vinther (talk · contribs) 07:01, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll be happy to review this article. Going to be a tough job though, so I suppose a couple of editors who worked on the article watch this review page so as to ease the process a little. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 07:01, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

First part

• The caption of this photo says the soldiers are in combat, yet the image is dated June 1943 and the German offensive didn't start until July so clearly they are preparing for battle

Y Fixed. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• In the date part of the infobox, write the start date of the German offensive and the end of the Soviet counteroffensive as one time period rather than the two currently featured

Y Fixed this. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Kursk, Russian SFSR, Soviet Union" change this to "Kursk, Soviet Union"

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Strategic Soviet Victory" change this to "Strategic Soviet victory, despite enormous casualties". Also, don't randomly capitalize the V in "victory"

Y Done, although I'm not sure if it's necessary to "hedge" by writing in, "despite enormous casualties." GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with GeneralizationsAreBad. Enormous Soviet casualties was the price the Soviet leadership (read Stalin) was willing to pay. Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• Statements and information covered and properly sourced in the body text of the article does not need to be referenced in the lead, that's just annoying and unnecessary

Some of the information in the lead, especially in its second and subsequent paragraphs, are not in the body of the article, and could easily become liable to challenge with cn tags in the future. EyeTruth (talk) 18:20, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• There's a CN tag in the "Casualties and losses" section in the infobox

Y Removed the statement, since it contradicted another number anyways. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• Remove this image altogether, not much use of it in its current place and the "Background" section already has two images

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "As the Battle of Stalingrad (August 1942 to February 1943) slowly ground to its conclusion" change this to "As the Battle of Stalingrad slowly ground to its conclusion in February 1943"

Y Fixed. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "pressuring the depleted German forces" change this to "pressuring the exhausted German forces who had survived the winter"

Y Tweaked the sentence. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Since, December 1942" drop comma

Y Fixed embarrassing grammar issue. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Field Marshall Erich von Manstein" visibly misspelled word

Y Fixed equally-embarrassing error. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "placed under the command of Field Marshal Erich von Manstein" already mentioned who Manstein is and his rank in the previous paragraph so simply sate "Manstein", nothing more

Y Done, as well. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "With this restructuring von Manstein" again, just write "Manstein", drop the "von" bit. I'm going to assume that most of Manstein's mentions in this article comes with "von", so therefore I'm just going to mention this once and not spam it throughout this review, and remind you to remove all the "von" mentions in the article.

Y Fixed 'em all. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "By February the Wehrmacht was in danger of a general collapse" when starting a new paragraph, always mention year with months

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "On 18 February Adolf Hitler" no need to write "Adolf". If you're going to write "Adolf Hitler" in the article, do it the very first time his name is mention in the body text. From that point on, always and simply and write "Hitler"

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "hours before the Soviets liberated Kharkov" link the Second Battle of Kharkov

Y I think it's already linked below. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Hitler's distrust of the officers of the General Staff" change this to "Hitler's distrust of the General Staff and traditional officer corps"

Y OK. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Though Hitler desired to relieve von Manstein and to blame him for the failure at Stalingrad" link Scapegoat somewhere in this sentence

Y Good idea. Did it, too. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "he soon realized" change to "he concluded"

Y Corrected. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "he could ill afford to lose the man largely regarded as the most capable commander in the army" change this to "he could ill afford to lose the man called "Hitler's most able general" by the American media"

Y Also done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "by the Central Front" mention the fact that "Fronts" were the Soviet equivalent of army groups

Y Snuck that in. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "in the winters of 1941/42 and 1942/43" change to "in the winters of 1941-42 and 1942-43"

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "resulted in a marked shortage in artillery and infantry" change to "resulted in a shortage of artillery and infantry"

Y Fixed. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "the burden would have to be carried by the panzer arm" change to "the burden would have to be carried by the panzer divisions, Germany's greatest assets in its campaign so far"

Y Did it. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "noting that his forces were too weak to launch such an attack" change "noting" to "believing"

Y Also done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Von Manstein's SS Panzer Corps pushed on northwards and took Belgorod on 18 March" already mentioned in previous paragraphs so curb the whole thing

Y Removed. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "the OKH Chief of Staff" link OKH

Y Did it. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "The offensive was codenamed Zitadelle (Citadel)" add quotes to "Citadel"

Y Corrected. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "to meet 9th Army east of Kursk" add "the" before "9th Army"

Y Did it. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "under the command of Paul Hausser" change to "under the command of the highly experienced Paul Hausser"

Y Did it. Fixed a typo with Hausser later on. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "on the left flank of the Waffen SS troops" link Waffen-SS

Y Did it. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "while Army Detachment "Kempf" change to "while Army Detachment Kempf"

Y Italicized it. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "German soldiers in Orel pass by the Church of the Intercession, Spring 1943" don't mention seasons on the English Wikipedia as other English-speaking people on the other side of the world has totally different seasons; use months!

Y Good point. Done too. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Buchterkirch (left) in discussion with General Model" change to "Ernst-Georg Buchterkirch (left) in conversation with General Model (center)"

Y Fixed caption. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Hitler rejected this idea. He did not want to give up so much terrain, even temporarily" change to "Hitler rejected this idea; he did not wish to give up so much terrain, even temporarily"

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "spoke of the difficulties of rebuilding" change to "spoke about the difficulties of rebuilding

Y Alright. Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Guderian argued strongly against the operation" this article has not yet mention Guderian so write his full name and rank

Y Did this, too. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "stating "the attack was pointless" change to "later stating in his memoirs that he believed the attack was pointless".

Y OK. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually the source cited, Guderian's memoir on p 307, states that he said this at the time in conference, that the attack was pointless. Gunbirddriver (talk) 03:33, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Three days later OKW (Oberkommando der Wehrmacht)" curb the Oberkommando der Wehrmacht bit and simply link OKW like you did with OKH earlie

Y Linked as requested. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "In Guderian's opinion" change to "In his opinion"

Y Yep, done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Is it really necessary to attack Kursk, and indeed in the east this year at all? Do you think anyone even knows where Kursk is? The entire world doesn't care if we capture Kursk or not. What is the reason that is forcing us to attack this year on Kursk, or even more, on the Eastern Front?" write this quote in a quotebox, but use {{quote| rather than {{quotebox|

Y Placed in a quote. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• Would be relatively easy to find a source supporting the fact Hitler postponed the attack again to 20 June rather than having a long, somewhat confusing footnote. Look into it and let me know what you find. In worst case, I'll do some digging myself.

• "was profoundly concerned with the delays but he still supported the offensive" add comma before "but"

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Finally on 1 July, Hitler announced that 5 July as the launch date of the offensive" add comma right after "Finally"

Y I can't believe I missed that. Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "All units did unit training" drop the second mention of "unit" in this sentence, or replace with "special" ... or something similar

Y Clunky sentence reworded. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• "70 per cent of the German armour on the Eastern Front" I believe "per cent" is spelled as one word!

Y Oops. Done! GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• The "German plans and preparation" subsection strikes me as too long. Every paragraph seems to contain useful, important information, but it's still too long. Curb between 2-5 sentences of each paragraph and it should be fine in length.

EyeTruth (talk) 21:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC). The length doesn't look abnormal compared to other sections of the article. The sections that really need to be trimmed are: "Battle of Prokhorovka", because it has its own article (GA status) and just repeats what's already there, and the "Analysis of Citadel", because it gives a subsection to each author (while conveniently excluding more than a dozen others). I'm not sure if the latter should exist at all, and the former can be easily trimmed down to two or three short paragraphs. EyeTruth (talk) 21:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm extremely tempted to remove "Analysis" altogether. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 21:40, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I also have thought the Analysis section should be removed. The editors have to choose whose analysis to list here, and as pointed out above much is left out. It could possibly be made into an article of its own, as there has been extensive analysis and much more worthwhile could be added to this subsection. Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I would also support the removal of the "Analysis" section. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 09:36, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

If there are no objections, I'm going to support removal, since:

• It essentially repeats information already covered in the article.
• It adds unnecessary bloat to an article which I fear is getting overly lengthy.
• It just opens up a debate over which historians/opinions are considered "notable."

GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 16:53, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

You can safely remove it. Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 18:26, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Done. Much neater now. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 19:51, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Belatedly noticed this excision. Fully support. Simon. Irondome (talk) 19:54, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Second part

Will get to this later.

Will continue the review soon (that is, tonight!). Stay sharp! :) Jonas Vinther • (speak to me!) 18:13, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

• "via their spy in Britain, John Cairncross at the Government Code and Cypher School at Bletchley Park" add comma after "Cairncross"

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Anastas Mikoyan wrote that on 27 March 1943" mention who Anastas Mikoyan is

Y Alright. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Joseph Stalin notified him of a possible German attack in the Kursk sector" mention who Stalin was, such "dictator of the Soviet Union"

Y Done. Did the same for Hitler, just for consistency. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• "In a letter to Stavka" add "the" before "Stavka"

Y Did it. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Marshal of the Soviet Union Georgi Zhukov, 1941" no need to italicize "marshal of the Soviet Union" and drop link to Zhukov in the caption

Y Corrected it. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 13:53, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Stalin consulted with his front-line commanders and senior officers of the General Staff, from 12 to 15 April 1943" drop comma

Y Fixed. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• "thus creating the conditions for a major Soviet offensive" write "counteroffensive" instead

Y Fixed. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• Somewhere in the fifth paragraph of the "Soviet plans and preparation" subsection, write that the Soviets build more than 686 bridges and had 300,000 wagon-loads of equipment delivered to the front line in preparations. Also mention that the 4,000 km of trenches dug by the Voronezh Front would have stretched from Moscow ... to Madrid! Use this excellent source to support these facts (fast-forward to 9:03 if you want to check for yourself).

YIncorporated. Didn't include 300,000 wagon-loads of supplies because its a vague weight measurement. Also didn't add "stretched from Moscow to Madrid" because it is a bit superfluous and could easily be "stretched from any-city-A to city-B". EyeTruth (talk) 18:35, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• "the Soviets availed themselves of the labour of over 300,000 civilians" confusion sentence, tweak to something more like "the Soviets used labour of over 300,000 civilians"

Y It's better now. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• "In his letter of 8 April" also confusion, tweak to "In a letter dated 8 April"

Y Sure. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Special training was provided to the Soviet infantry manning the defences to help them overcome the tank phobia that had been evident since the start of the German invasion" mention that this "special traning" was called "ironing"

Y Done. EyeTruth (talk) 18:35, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• "were mostly effective against the Ferdinand tank destroyers" tweak to "were mostly effective against the massive Ferdinand tank destroyers"

Y Done. EyeTruth (talk) 04:57, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

• "According to historian Anthony Beevor" link Beevor

Y Did it. Removed a redundant quote and note, as well. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• "The main tank of the Soviet tank arm was the T-34, on which the Red Army attempted to concentrate production" tweak to "The main tank of the Soviet tank arm was the T-34, the best all-around tank design of the entire war, on which the Red Army attempted to concentrate production"

Y OK, although I'll source this if necessary. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• "The Soviet tank arm also contained" drop "Soviet" mention as that was made clear in the previous sentence

Y Works for me. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• "the Soviets assembled a large number of lend-lease tanks" link lend-lease

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• "This amounted to 26 per cent of the total manpower of the Red Army, 26 per cent of its mortars and artillery, 35 per cent of its aircraft and 46 per cent of its tanks" spell "per cent" as one word :)

Y Wow... fixed. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• "and the Soviet Air Force (Voyenno-Vozdushnye Sily, "Military Air Forces", or V.V.S.)" curb all this and simply write VVS as the official name and other nicknames has already been used previously. Also, don't write VVS as V.V.S, please ensure that all VVS mentions are done without periods!

Y Done. EyeTruth (talk) 04:58, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

• "The Luftwaffe forces in the east were further depleted with squadrons being shifted back to Germany to defend against the increasing Allied bombing campaign" mention that, since mid-1943, three out of four Luftwaffe aircraft was used to defend the homeland from the Western allies

Needs a source. EyeTruth (talk) 04:57, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Here's something I did find: "Of the total aircraft available at the end of June, 38.7 percent were in the east..." (page 158). GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Y I have put it in. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 22:04, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

• "the Luftwaffe continued to make use of the Junkers Ju 87G Stuka" tweak to "the Luftwaffe continued to make use of the Junkers Ju 87 "Stuka" dive-bombers". Also, "Stuka" should not be written in italics consistently furher down the article (as it does currently) and should only be written in quotes in the first mention

Y Did it. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 21:48, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

• "was the Bordkanone 3,7 cm" replace italics with quotes

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 13:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• "In the months preceding the battle, Luftflotte 6" link Luftflotte 6

Y Linked. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• "such as the Ilyushin Il-2 Shturmovik" again, replace italics with quotes

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 21:40, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Luftwaffe flak units protected bridges and were drawn into the ground combat" tweak this caption to "Luftwaffe flak units protecting bridges during pre-battle preparations"

Y Done. I simply reduced it to "Luftwaffe flak units". EyeTruth (talk) 04:57, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

• "A Soviet machine gun position at Kursk" also tweak this caption to "A Soviet machine gun in action during the Battle of Kursk"

Y Tweaked accordingly. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• Will continue next section(s) tomorrow. Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 21:31, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll try to do more tomorrow. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Sounds great, ping me when you're confident all points have been addressed. think it's much better to do this review section by section to ensure a thorough review. Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 20:21, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

GeneralizationsAreBad and EyeTruth, please look at this edit and let me know what you think, I think it's important to include such an image. Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 12:11, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

I like it, just stick a footnote on and it works for me. It's a bit blurry, but it should work. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 12:35, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree the caption might need some tweaking to sound more encyclopedia-like. Got a suggestion? Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 12:38, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Good addition. It would be much better if it's clearer. EyeTruth (talk) 18:01, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for any misunderstanding; I was actually referring to the photo, not the caption. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 21:34, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

So, just to be clear, you are against including the photo in the article or ... ? Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 22:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

I didn't mean to be so vague. Yes, I support keeping it in. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 22:25, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay, no problem then. I'll continue the review soon. Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 22:57, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Third part

Tomorrow. Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 23:13, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

• "the south, the 4th Panzer Army and Army Detachment "Kempf" italics not quotes. I see by a quick glance this happens all over the article. So as not to further spam this review, I'm just going to remind you to write all Kempf mentions in italics and not quotes this time

Y I believe I have these fixed. Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:56, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• "were attached to the Großdeutschland Division in the XLVIII Panzer Corps of Army Group South" link Infantry Regiment Großdeutschland

Y Done. Are we sure we want the infantry regiment and not the division? Gunbirddriver (talk) 03:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Quite right, my mistake. Link Panzer-Grenadier-Division Großdeutschland! Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 12:06, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

The wiki-link has been switched to the division. Gunbirddriver (talk) 21:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• "The Red Army used two Fronts, the equivalent of army groups" already mentioned earlier that Fronts were their kind of army groups so curb that bit

Y Done. Gunbirddriver (talk) 03:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• The "Comparison of strength" subsection might be considered overkill of historical analysis. Furthermore, it contain tables which state facts very closely related to what is already covered and explained earlier

Agree. That subsection needs to be revised and incorporated into the other subsections of "opposing forces". EyeTruth (talk) 22:46, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• Change the title of the subsection "Preliminary actions" to something that indicates much more strongly that this is about the part where the battle begins. My suggestion would be to rename it simply "Battle" and create a bunch of subsections further down

The problem here is that we are referring to actions that occured on the night of July 4th. The German battle officially commenced on July 5th, but the defenders across from the XLVIII Panzer Corps had control of high ground which was needed to allow direction of the artillery fire, so XLVIII Panzer Corps undertook "preliminary" actions the night just prior to the start of the battle. Gunbirddriver (talk) 03:40, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

You got a point, but let's get some more opinions. Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 12:06, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

No strong feelings here either way. I favor "Preliminary actions" or "Opening actions," just to distinguish it. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 21:25, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

I like "Opening actions". Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 21:38, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

"Preliminary action" is fine with me. "Opening action" would fit the fighting on 5 July. EyeTruth (talk) 03:08, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• "with just nine tanks and 31 assault guns" write nine with the number nine as WP:NUMERAL says you should not switch between using words and numbers in the same sentence

Y Fixed. Gunbirddriver (talk) 03:36, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Given Model's tactics, even if a breakthrough did occur, the briefest delay in bringing the panzer divisions up would give the Soviets time to react and plug the gap" I propose removing the "Given Model's tactics" bit as it sounds like a WP:NPOV violation.

Y Done. Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:43, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• "slowed the attack down" remove "down"

Y Done. Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:43, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• "The German attack had been along a 45-kilometre (28 mi) wide front. However, due to extensive minefields and the tenacity of the Soviet defenders, the attack had stalled" all of this has just been mentioned in a different wording in the ending sentence of the paragraph right above!

Y Removed. Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:43, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Of the 653rd Heavy Panzerjäger Battalion's 45 Ferdinands sent into battle" don't write Ferdiands in italics if its the tanks that are being referenced

Y Fixed. Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:43, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Rokossovsky, p. 266" this should be a beautiful blue link like the rest of the references in the article

I assume it's citing Rokossovsky's memoirs, but I don't currently have that text on me. I'll see if I can find another source mentioning dug-in Soviet tanks. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 21:23, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

I think all five books I have mention it. I'll search for page numbers. EyeTruth (talk) 03:08, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Y Replaced it with another source. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 14:42, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• "The Ferdinands were called into action" again, don't italicize Ferdinands, just like you don't italicize Tiger tank mentions

Y Fixed. Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:43, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• "called into action to take Hill 253.5" mention what Hill 253.5 refers to otherwise it only triggers more questions that it answers

Y Addressed. Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:43, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Model ordered his forces to halt to reorganize" tweak to "Model ordered his forces to halt and reorganize"

Y Done, though not by me. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 17:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• "On 9 July, a meeting was held, at the headquarters of the XLVII Panzer Corps" remove commas in this sentence

Y Done. Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:43, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• "were to be bypassed and the schwerpunkt" as it's a foreign word, capitalize schwerpunkt

Y Done. Gunbirddriver (talk) 03:46, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• "By this point, both the German and the Soviet commanders realised that the outcome of the battle had already been decided" is this the consensus among historians or the sole opinion of Healy 2008? Was do we know about this?
• "KTB AOK9 9 July (Daily war diary of the 9th Army). (Frieser 2007, p. 110)" in this case, simply adding Frieser 2007, p. 110 would be okay instead of this footnote

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 14:51, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• "On 12 July, the Soviets launched Operation Kutuzov: their counter-offensive upon the Orel salient" replace colon with comma

Y Done. Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:55, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Two Fronts, the Bryansk Front and the Western Front" if you're gonna' mention the specific fronts why start by writing "Two Fronts"? Tweak to "The Bryansk and the Western Fronts"

Y Done. Gunbirddriver (talk) 02:55, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks to Gunbirddriver for taking care of most of this section. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 16:58, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree, nice job. Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 19:05, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Fourth part

Also tomorrow... :) Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 23:13, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry I've not initiated the fourth part yet, been so busy IRL today. Will continue tomorrow, count on that! Cheers for understanding. Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 00:05, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

• "At dawn on 5 July, the Grossdeutschland Division" just write Grossdeutschland

Y Sure, done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 14:02, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Attempts by the Red Air Force" the VVS was never called "Red Air Force". Change to Soviet Air Force or VVS

Y That always nagged me. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 13:06, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• "At dawn, 5 July, the three divisions" tweak to "At dawn, on 5 July, the three divisions"

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 13:48, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Soviet defensive belts, at 1300 hours, the 2nd SS Panzer Division's vanguard" write "1300 hours" as "13:00"

Y Done! GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 13:06, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• "which were quickly dispatched. 40 more Soviet tanks soon engaged the division" when starting a new sentence, numbers should always be written with words, not the number itself

Y Changed it. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 13:40, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• "by 1610 hours" again, write it as "by 16:10"

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 13:03, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• "aid from the III Panzer Corps to his right, but III Panzer Corps was unable to assist as it was occupied with challenges of its own" tweak to "aid from the III Panzer Corps to his right, but the panzer crops had no units to spare"

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 13:43, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• "German crews, working in "boiling" tanks in sweltering weather conditions, "frequently suffered from heat exhaustion" remove comma and quotes (don't remove quotes at boiling)

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:40, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

• "and Corps Raus (commanded by Erhard Raus)" if you can find it, mention Raus's rank
• "Clemens Graf Kageneck, battalion commander, described it thus" add "a" before "battalion commander"

Y OK. Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:40, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Those units of the division that had crossed the river, launched an attack led by Tigers on Stary Gorod, which was repulsed due to poorly cleared minefields and strong resistance" remove the first comma

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:40, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

• "engineers constructed a heavy bridge enabling the Tigers to cross, where they joined the force on the far side" remove comma

The comma looks fine to me. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 13:48, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• "the furthest advance by Army Detachment "Kempf" of the day" italics not quotes!

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:40, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Erhard Raus, later wrote" full name already mentioned earlier, just use surname

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 13:39, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• "The advancing infantry surprised them and had no difficulty ferreting them out. But when the infantry reached the two to five-kilometre deep zone of the battle positions prepared in the preceding months, they had to make extensive use of hand grenades in order to mop up [a] maze of densely dug-in trenches and bunkers, some of which were a dozen or more feet deep. At the same time, artillery and flak fired counter-battery missions against the enemy heavy weapons that had resumed fire from rear positions. They also fired on reserves infiltrating through the trench system, as well as against [Soviet] medium artillery" I suggest omitting parts of this quote to make more readable and smaller

I suggest omitting the last sentence, and maybe the penultimate one. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:50, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

• Since this battle lasted for more than a month, is it a good idea to have sections like "First day summary"? I agree it's nicely sourced and factually correct, but summarizing the events of a single day in an article about the largest tank crash in history seems counterproductive. I'm in favor of deleting the whole section.

This happened because there was a time some editors, myself inclusive, were considering whether to limit the scope of the article to only Operation Citadel since the other two operations have their own articles, but a conclusion was never reached. But the article, anyways, seems to have ended up focusing mostly on Operation Citadel. For Citadel though, the bulk of the German offensive action happened in just the first week. Anyways, I support removing that subsection, or compressing and integrating it into the other subsections. EyeTruth (talk) 00:50, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Y Compressed and integrated into appropriate subsections. EyeTruth (talk) 02:20, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

• I don't think "The battle progresses" is a encyclopedia-like title, sounds like a novel or documentary statement! Got anything better?

Y. Changed to "Further German progress". EyeTruth (talk) 02:20, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

• Remove the completely unnecessary cite from this pictures caption

Y Done. No idea why it was cited. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 13:59, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• "at Prokhorovka from the rear. 1st and 2nd SS Panzer divisions" in line with my earlier comment about never using numbers after period, tweak this to "at Prokhorovka from the rear. First and Second SS Panzer divisions"

Y I just placed "the" in front of "1st." It works better. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 14:08, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

B Or we can use Leibstandarte, Totenkpf and Das Reich, and keep everything consistent. Currently the article has a mix of the two nomenclatures. We'll eventually need to stick to one. EyeTruth (talk) 00:41, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

• "To Leibstandarte's right" add "the" before Leibstandarte

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 13:51, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Unbeknownst" cool academic word, but since we are a popular encyclopedia serving the general public, it should be replaced with a more commonly-used synonym

Y "Unknown" should do. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 13:57, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• "on the night of 11/12" tweak to "on the night of 11-12"

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 13:57, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Throughout the night, German frontline troops could hear the ominous sounds of Soviet tank engines to the east as the 18th and 29th Tank Corps moved into their assembly areas" whole sentence is unsourced???

I checked Battle of Prokhorovka, which contains virtually the same sentence, but it's not sourced there, either. I will do some looking. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 14:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

So far, I haven't found much. If anyone could check their sources for information on the prelude to Prokhorovka, I would really appreciate the help. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 17:05, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps User:EyeTruth or User:Irondome, who both worked on Prokhorovka, have something? Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 17:22, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

A source was never included when that passage was added to the Prokhorovka article by Gunbird (and it still made it to GA :D). However, I think I have sources that corroborate that info as is or to an extent. EyeTruth (talk) 21:46, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

A source like that would be better than no source at all. Also, when this is done, I'll do the last part of the review. :) Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 22:05, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Y I believe the passage came from Nipe's book, but I don't have that anymore. I've replaced the passage with Clark's account, which simply repeated stuff that were in LAH headquarters combat reports. EyeTruth (talk) 00:41, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Luftwaffe air superiority, over the battlefield, also contributed to the Soviet losses" remove commas

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:20, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

• "partly due to the VVS being directed against the units flanking II SS Panzer Corps" don't write VVS in italics

Y Done. EyeTruth (talk) 00:37, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• "German records indicate three to five tanks destroyed" Ima' take a wild guess and assume the Germans destroyed more than just five tanks during the Battle of Prokhorovka, right? RIGHT? I believe a "hundreds" mention is missing in this sentence.

Y It was worded poorly. Fixed. EyeTruth (talk) 00:37, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

• Okay, only four more sections to go, looks very promising. :) Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 23:00, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

• While I certainly don't want to distract from the task at hand, if any of you would be interested in collaborating to get Battle of Rzhev, Summer 1942 to GA, it would be great working with you. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 13:28, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm going on vacation the 5 July, but I'll be happy to review it once I get back. I'm sure EyeTruth and Irondrome would also like to work on the article, just like Barbarossa and now Kursk. :) Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 14:32, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
    • I don't think it's quite at the review stage yet... GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 20:57, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
    • Actually, we can start handing out Million Awards once we get this to GA, since it receives (around) over 450,000 views annually. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 22:12, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• Nice! :) Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 23:08, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Last part!

• "Hitler summoned Kluge and Manstein to his headquarters at Rastenburg, in East Prussia" remove comma

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:27, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• "This criticism has been echoed by officers in the post-war German Army (Bundeswehr)" italicize Bundeswehr

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:27, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Engelmann, Zitadelle p. 5." just a suggestion, but this would look good as a harv ref
• "With the failure of Zitadelle we have suffered a decisive defeat. The armoured formations, reformed and re-equipped with so much effort, had lost heavily in both men and equipment and would now be unemployable for a long time to come. It was problematical whether they could be rehabilitated in time to defend the Eastern Front ... Needless to say the [Soviets] exploited their victory to the full. There were to be no more periods of quiet on the Eastern Front. From now on, the enemy was in undisputed possession of the initiative" fine quote, but change it to "{{quote|" rather than "{{quotation|".

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:34, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• "The Western Allied landings in Italy opened up a new front" this sentence contains a link to the invasion of Sicily which has already been linked earlier. Remove it!

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:27, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• Remove Churchill quote, it adds nothing and including his opinion on Kursk might be considered a WP:NPOV violation by some (like me!).

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:38, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Grigoriy Krivosheyev" change to "Russian military historian Grigoriy Krivosheyev"

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:38, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• "The Steppe Front lost 23,272 irrecoverable casualties and 75,001 medical casualties, for a total of 98,273" there is a CN tag at the end of this sentence!

Y fixed myself. Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 08:05, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

• "During Operation Kutuzov", don't italicize Kutuzov

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:43, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• "During Polkovodets Rumyantsev" don't italicize this either

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:43, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• "According to Christer Bergström" tweak to "According to historian Christer Bergström"

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:38, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• Same goes for Karl-Heinz Frieser

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:38, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• "In facing Operation Kutuzov" still no italics

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:43, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• "During Polkovodets Rumyantsev" no italics, last time ima' spam this, take care of them all

Y Done. (Whew!) GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:43, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• "after Hitler had ordered a stop to the German offensive, Guderian sent in the following preliminary assessment" drop link to Guderian in this sentence

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:30, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• Don't write Guderian's quote below in italics... whoever wrote this section really loved italics

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:30, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Antony Beevor writes that" Beevor and that he's a historian is already mentioned erlier, tweak to "Beevor writes that"

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:30, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• "Christer Bergström presents different figures" same goes for Bergström, just write "Bergström presents different figures

Y Done. GeneralizationsAreBad (talk) 23:35, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

• The books in the "References" sections should be in alpahabetic order. Fix that

Y fixed myself. Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 08:05, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

• Okay people, these are my last comments. Once these have been addressed, I'ma pass it!! I will be leaving for vacation tomorrow at around 2:00 so please do your best to ensure that all the remaining issues have been fixed by then, otherwise you would have to wait until the 12 July! Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 23:08, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Okay, having taken care of the last issues in this review and also made several other minor fixes and changes here and there, I'm going to pass this article for GA-status! Amazing work everyone, this is truly an important article, thank you for all for participating in the review. Jonas Vinther • (Click here to collect your price!) 08:05, 4 July 2015 (UTC)