Talk:Vigraharaja IV's first war against the Ghazanvids

Moving from mainspace

See the discussion over here. Try not to invent names for the events those are not named by historians. Try merging this with the Ghaznavid campaigns in India. Imperial^[AFCND] 11:45, 10 December 2023 (UTC)

The page has been renamed as "Battle of khetri" since the battle took place in Khetri village, Rajasthan.

This is an accurate name. Magadhan3933 (talk) 01:34, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Sorry. As long as no historians called it 'Battle of Khetri', we can't name that. You can add this context as a part of a large campaign or war. Thats why I recommended adding to Ghaznavid campaigns in India. Imperial^[AFCND] 04:08, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

The battle was fought in Khetri and hence it iis battle of khetri, You cant delete the entire article on this basis, furthermore, all the sources used are reliable. Magadhan3933 (talk) 04:40, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

That is not possible. Read the discussion from the above link where a reviewer explains about it. We can't invent names like 'Battle of X' in articles. Btw, did you create the article? Imperial^[AFCND] 04:54, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

@Asilvering, could you please explain that again? Imperial^[AFCND] 04:57, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Battle of khetri literally makes sense considering the battle was fought in khetri, but Ok, how about the title "Battle In khetri" since the battle took place in Khetri, this is appropriate. Magadhan3933 (talk) 05:00, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

The above mentioned user is a well experienced WP:AFC reviewer. They will explain you about that. Imperial^[AFCND] 05:03, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

I will talk to him/her But isn't "Battle in khetri" the fairest conclusion we can go with. Magadhan3933 (talk) 05:06, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

The same rule goes for that. You should talk with them. Imperial^[AFCND] 05:09, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

I found something.

Sources do say that the battle took place in khetrii, Vavvera.

"Vigraharaja IV’s first war against the Muslims appears to "have been fought in self-defence. Advancing as far as Vavvera,®^ now a small village about six miles from Khetri in the Jaipur 'division of Rajasthan, the Hammira invited Vigraharaja to submit to his authority. Vigraharaja’s Chief Minister, Srldhara, seems to have been for buying off the invader. Vigraharaja, however, regarded such a course as disgraceful. He had decided to protect his friends; and he was determined also to protect Brahmanas, sacred places, and temples.®" Though the Lalitavigraharaja, our only :source of information regarding this Muslim invasion, breaks off at this point, it is reasonable to conclude that in the ensuing battle, the Hammira was beaten and forced to retire to his own dominions."

Also the contemporary Inscriptiions and muslimm accounts state the same.

"Vavverű with Rüpnagar in Kishangarh, Rajasthan, but on very insufficient grounds. Actually it is, as pointed out in the text, now a small village a few miles from Khetri. The Gauda Brähamans of this place are found all over Räjpūtānā and are known as Babberväls. 32. Rāva-ākīrtiḥ kapyucchaiḥ sahadayādan brahṛti- tath vancharatidvirtha nasumansaṃ diriyadigamḥ. Manaiteshu vyasthedhvapi mrramasya pu sakala- nimanangikatuh kathayat diveyam kimsubhih.” (Lalitesigrkarāja-nataka)

In V. 1217 according to Jinapala's Kharataragachchhapaffäreli and in V. 1232 according to the Upakesagachchhaprabandha as well as the colophon Of a Ms. of Anekarthasarigraha of Hemachandra, copied out in V. 1232. (of the authorities the first two are still unpublished. For a notice of the last see the Jainapustakaprašasti sangreha, Singhi Jaina Granthamälä. p. 10).

The other contemporary Ghaznavite ruler was Khusrau Malik (1160-1186 A.D.). As the first Muslim invasion in Vigraharaja's reign was perhaps not long after his accezion, Khusrau Shah, who ruled up to V. 1217, may have been the Hemmira who reached Vavverå. Khusrau Malik, a "mild and voluptuous prince to whom authority was irksome" is not very likely to have undertaken an arduous campagin into the sandy tract of Rajasthan.

Hence battle of vavvera/Khetri is an accurate name apparently, right? Magadhan3933 (talk) 05:28, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Its not the matter of context. Its about how historians called that. Did they call it "Battle of Vavvera" or "Battle of Khetri"? Imperial^[AFCND] 05:56, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

The brahmin inscription quoted does, also the source i cited mentions the same, about the ghaznavid invasion in vavvera and battle of it Magadhan3933 (talk) 06:47, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Thats not enough. @Asilvering will explain it. Imperial^[AFCND] 07:15, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

okay I will discuss but next time please don't move the page or delete any page prior to any discussion. Thank you. Magadhan3933 (talk) 11:20, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Read WP:BOLD. I never move controversial pages. I did this because it was newly created. Imperial^[AFCND] 11:21, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Bro but you obviously cant remove even a new page without having a discussion regarding it on Talk page. Magadhan3933 (talk) 14:40, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

If the creator of the article made it into an AFC submission, indeed I would have discussed before a move. But this case isn't the same. Imperial^[AFCND] 16:10, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

The article was indeed made after AFC submission. Magadhan3933 (talk) 17:48, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

@Gspgoat Can you please tell me how far right it is to delete a page whiich was made after AFC submission without any discussion in the talk page? Magadhan3933 (talk) 17:49, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

No. This article was not moved to mainspace through an AFC submission. Ask creator. Imperial^[AFCND] 18:03, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

What do you mean? Elaborate it so I can understand, kindly read WP: TALKFIRST and I am pinging the creator of this article to discuss further @Gspgoat though I have provided the source which may clear the confusion so can you move it again to the main namespace? Magadhan3933 (talk) 19:12, 11 December 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely not. You can't invent names for battles, and thats what the creator did. The rules of wikipedia is same for everyone. Learn about AFC submission. Imperial^[AFCND] 00:35, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know I was having my doubts regarding the name of the article, but now I have renamed it as historian dashrath sharma calls the event in his book early chauhan dynasty Gspgoat^(talk) 07:05, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

As far as I know no one has invented or named the article on his own and If the article was such then AFC had already been rejected (like it was declined in your case by User:Aslivering before the article was created). User:Gspgoat & User:Ranadhira You should look into this since both of you are inclined towards Rajput history. Magadhan3933 (talk) 07:14, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I think user @Magadhan3933 is right, if the event did happen you cannot remove the article without any prior discussion but you should rename it as the source mentions. The same thing was stated by asilvering in the discussion you pinged earlier as "This one does at least look like it did happen, so rather than deletion, the thing for you to do here is to write what you can verify from the source, and remove the stuff that isn't in that source. Use "not in source" or "no source" in your edit summary when you remove text so people know why you're doing so."

If you still think that anything isnt sourced in the article please feel free to remove it. Gspgoat^(talk) 07:09, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

You should move it into draftspace till it gets reviewed. The name is still however not appropriate. And I didn't delete the article. I moved it from mainspace as I had similar experience earlier. However, I am leaving this to @Asilvering. Btw, you can add this into the Ghaznavid campaings in India. Imperial^[AFCND] 07:14, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

This name is appropriate and is in the sources described Magadhan3933 (talk) 07:15, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for youre clarification and I do appreciate the suggestion of adding it in the Ghaznavid campaigns in India and I will add the information there too but right now I am very busy outside wikipedia. And I do have extended confirmed rights on wikipedia so I can directly create articles in the mainspace, but still the articles can be rewied in the mainspace too. Gspgoat^(talk) 07:22, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

your* reviewed* Gspgoat^(talk) 07:54, 12 December 2023 (UTC)