Talk:Battle of Guilford Court House

This drum was used in the battle

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/SnareDrumCa1780.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:SnareDrumCa1780.jpg

Greetings from Germany.

Rainer — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.159.87.231 (talk) 20:17, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Friendly fire

It says here in the Battle section (and is repeated on the Friendly fire article that "Lieutenant John Macleod, in command of two British three-pounders, had just arrived and was directed by Cornwallis to fire on the Dragoons and the British alike". What does this mean, exactly? That he was told to specifically target the friendly forces? Or, more likely, that he was told to fire on the Dragoons without regard to friendly casualties? Does anyone know the truth of it? And how is it best to clarify the matter in the text? Xyl 54 (talk) 20:44, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Cornwallis directed the British artillery to fire at the American forces, which included the 1st Maryland (infantry) and the 3d Light Dragoons (cavalry) despite the proximity of British forces, mostly the 2d Battalion of the Foot Guards Brigade (infantry). While it is possible that the American forces were mixed into the British as a mob of individuals, it is more likely that the Guards were sandwiched between the Dragoons and the Marylanders. The probable ammunition was cannister, which spreads across the trajectory, so that individuals and formations at lower elevations or to either side of the target would be impacted by the cone of balls. Solid shot would also be a problem as smooth bore cannon had a significant circular error and would continue down range after hitting its target (a rolling cannon ball retained sufficient kinetic energy to remove a foot). Solid shot fired at infantry in formation would kill or wound two or three Soldiers if fired directly into a line, but if fired from the flank of a line, could kill or wound a dozen troops and still carry for tens and hundreds of meters. The light 3pdr guns were known as "grasshoppers" because their light carriages would jump up and back on firing, which did nothing for their accuracy. Their primary use was in support of infantry at ranges less than 150 meters. Solid shot fired at the Dragoons would go through the Dragoons (even an object as massive as a horse would not stop solid shot at close or medium range), through the Guards and on through the Marylanders until it embedded in the ground or stopped rolling. It would have forced the Dragoons to withdraw from the rear of the Guards, forced the Marylanders to withdraw to higher ground and allow the Guards to reform and recover their balance. On another subject, addressing the issue of slavery in America during the War for Independence does not belong in an article dealing with a battle and the campaign that led to the battle and the campaign that flowed from the battle. It belongs in an article on slavery in America or during the War or a social or political history. As far as the content, the British actions were meant to damage the economy of the rebellious colonies by removing the agricultural workforce in certain regions. But slaves of Loyalists were returned to their owners, as slavery was still legal through out the British Empire at that time. Some of the escaped slaves were also returned to slavery as personal servants or once they reached Jamaica or other British American colonies where slavery was a major economic factor. Escaped slaves were often "drafted" into pioneer (engineer and labor) units. As far as the numbers, the estimated population of the colonies at that time cannot support the number of claimed freed slaves. I doubt there were 12,000 slaves in total in the limited area (the northern counties of South Carolina and the central southern counties of North Carolina) in which Cornwallis' army campaigned from Charleston to Wilimington. On the other hand, as remarked upon by French observers in 1780 and 1781, the Continental Army included a number of "free men of color" or slaves serving in lieu of their masters (when insufficient volunteers came forward when the states recruited for their regiments in the Army, the states resorted to a draft from the militia. The drafted men could buy out, procure a substitute or send a slave, who had to be freed, in their place). The State of Rhode Island bought (and then freed) sufficient slaves from their masters to fill the 2d Rhode Island Regiment in 1778, the regiment being mustered out in 1783. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.85.76.26 (talk) 13:10, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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tool tip and main summary disagree.

When you hover over the link for this Battle in the March 15th page, the tool tip pop-up says the British had 1900, but the first paragraph claims 2100. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.91.70.120 (talk) 20:32, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Doh, I tried to fix my original edit. The tool tip is fine, it's the March 15th summary that's only listing 1900. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.91.70.120 (talk) 20:36, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Captain Robert Hicks Jnr, North Carolina Militia

Dormskirk, Cordless Larry, in doing some genealogical research on my Hicks ancestors, I came across an account of my 4 x great-grandfather's bravery at the Battle of Guildford Court House (which can be viewed here:[1]). Since he was the last-man-standing, does anyone think he is worthy of mention in this article? If so, where? I'd prefer someone else to do this, if worthwhile, given my connection. There is a "Colonel Hicks" mentioned here [2], and here: Guilford Court House order of battle, but I'm not at all sure it is one and the same man, although my ancestor certainly was promoted to Colonel at some point. Anne (talk) 23:55, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi - It appears that Hicks was exceptionally brave but I am not sure that an understanding of his role is central to a critical analysis of the battle. Just my thoughts. Best wishes. Dormskirk (talk) 00:03, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Understood! That's why I checked before doing anything! Anne (talk) 00:11, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

I would mention him only if he's noted by secondary sources such as histories of the Battle of Guilford Court House. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:54, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Cordless Larry Everything about him, online, seems to have become infected with a virus, so there are sources, apart from the Hathitrust one already linked, above, including on page 1 of Early Times In Granville County North Carolina by Mrs. Cicero W. Harris (also infected: Website blocked: www.ncgenweb.us Malwarebytes Browser Guard blocked this website because it may contain malware activity.), so I cannot access these (although I have a copy on my hard drive). I have newspaper cuttings, collected by my late father, but he has failed to record which newspaper! There is stuff I could email you, but nothing really expands on the Hathitrust account regarding his actions at Guildford Court House (did you look at it?). The unusual part is that the patriots fled the scene of battle, except Robert Hicks, who fought the British single-handedly. The third one down, here, [3] is also infected, so I cannot access it to see what is said. Alternatively, something could be put on this page, James W. Crawford Jr. because he, too, is a descendant. Anne (talk) 11:08, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

The Wheeler source is a first-hand account, so not really what I was suggesting. What would merit inclusion would be if a history of the battle written by a historian had mentioned him. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:07, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

Had it not been infected, this might have been satisfactory http://guilfordbattlegroundcompany.org › GBC-Battl...PDF. I've written to some people in Granville, NC, to ask your question. Let's see if I hear back. But I take it the Wheeler source would be unacceptable, even for the James Crawford page? Anne (talk) 18:17, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

It needs a secondary source wherever it goes. I can open that PDF with no problem, so I don't know why you're getting a malware warning. You could try this link instead. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:40, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

I can see this is going nowhere, unless I get something from my contact. In the meantime, might you be able to work your magic on this: http://www.ncgenweb.us › newpaper › hicks-norwood 1 Dec 2011 — Early Times In Granville County By Mrs. Cicero W. Harris ... the stain which the retreat of the North Carolina militia from that historicsite, (which I am prevented from opening by my firewall)? Anne (talk) 22:11, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

WP is an encyclopedia and its article are a summary and not a complete history. I would therefore agree with Dormskirk, I am not sure that an understanding of his role is central to a critical analysis of the battle. I am not even certain that we can place his actions in the timeline of the battle. The other issue is the inconsistency in sources as to Captain/Colonel Robert/William Hicks. That is without addressing whether the sources are considered sufficiently reliable. Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 00:45, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Cinderella157. This has already been established in my post above, when I wrote "I can see this is going nowhere, unless I get something from my contact". If I get something along the lines of Cordless Larry's request, from the people I've written to in Granville County, then I will return here, but otherwise I've said what I've said. All I'm hoping for is if Cordless Larry can open a website which is blocked to me. Nothing more and nothing less. Anne (talk) 01:20, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Try this link, Anne. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:34, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you so much Cordless Larry. That was very kind of you and very helpful. Just one last question, does something written in 1878 (100 years after the event) qualify as a secondary source, and could something go on the James Crawford page, under a heading of "Family History"? I can see that this Battle page is not so relevant. If so, I could probably do it, so long as I'm not slapped with a COI? Anne (talk) 09:25, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, possibly - if the source is judged to be reliable. Since you're a relative, it might be a good idea to make an edit request rather than doing it yourself. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:48, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks Cordless Larry. Done. However, nobody has ever looked at that talk page, so .............! Anne (talk) 19:10, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Someone will if you follow the instructions at WP:COIREQ. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:36, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

Oh, yesssss, how could I have forgotten that humiliating banner! Anne (talk) 19:47, 25 November 2021 (UTC)