Talk:Battle of Grahovac/Archive 1

Archive 1

Template issue

What seems to be the issue? The fact that Battle of Grahovac and other battles were fought by Serb tribes from Brda, Montenegro and other regions of modern-day Montenegro? The template is relevant. Sadko (talk) 13:57, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Pinging @Sideshow Bob:. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:05, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991:Show good faith and restore it to the former version with template included. That version is before the editing conflict, is it not? There is no hardocore edit warring here, or, if there is, you can put the same template on your own TP. That is something what a neutral self-proclaimed mediator would do. Bob does not care for the facts and it is only optimistic to expect anything from this discussion. Sadko (talk) 14:12, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

I have not proclaimed myself to be a "mediator". The pre-dispute version is the one before you added the template (since the template was added by you and your edit was soon reverted). You seem to misunderstand the concept of "stable version" or "pre-dispute version". Take a look at WP:BRD. Lets see what SB will say before we make a conclusion on what should be done. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:19, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

The issue is a dubious "Wars and battles fought by..." template which only exists for Croatia of all the countries and nations in the world, and it has recently been created in the version referring to Serbs, and a sneaky attempt to link it to the modern state of Serbia. The very existence of such template is absurd and used solely to spread nationalist POV on articles (by erroneously assuming that Serbs, rather than Montenegrins fought in those battles and wars, and assuming Serbs of Montenegro as a separate entity, although they are nothing more than Montenegrins with dual Montenegrin/Serb national identity - which is quite a complex issue, especially if you have superficial knowledge of Montenegrin history). Also, the template links to the article Military history of Serbia, which has absolutely no link whatsoever to battles fought by Montenegro and the Ottoman Empire, for example. Sideshow Bob 06:55, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

1) Even if it was only made for battles wages by Croats/Croatia that would be enough. Both templates have been seen by a number of editors and admins of several Wiki projects. 2) Such templates can be seen for battles involving Ottoman Empire, Imperial Russia and a number of countries and empires. It just happens that I made sort of "one for all". 3) Therefore, no argument can be made that is a "standalone template". 4) There is no sneaky attempt to make a link to Serbia, it is related to another state of that time. Serbs had 2 states, just like Germans and several other nations had God knows how many small(er) states. The link to war history of Serbia was left there from the working version and it is removed, because it is off the topic. I can see what you want to imply (Načertanije/velikosrpski agenti crazyness). 5) Now when that is taken care for, I do not want to “prove” that 19th century or 18th century and a big part of people of Montenegro of 20/21st century were and are Serbs. History says so, and just every state document, every notable person (see questions on TP on Petar Petrović II Njegoš, it was done by an international team of rewriters), pretty much most of historical documents. There is no one second of doubt about it for anyone who is able to look at history per facts and NOT daily politics and modern-day views. The problem comes up because people from 2019 do not feel the same way as their ancestors did and want to make their own version of history which would not hurt their feelings or their new identity. There is no doubt that Montenegro was a state of its own, with most clear regional/state identity in the Serbdom, but not much more than that. Part of modern-day ethnic Motenegrins refused to feel Serbs (which they are by ancestry), because of the destruction of Montenegrin state and autonomy in 1918 (which I do not support, and what started as a strategy and a think of revolt became something greater, no doubt) and the work of Communists, because they promoted the idea of separate Montenegrin identity as a way to promote Yugoslavianism. It is not really complicated when you try to look at it with a bird's-eye view. Please, people from Brda region waged wars and raids on people from Montenegro, people from Montenegro (a much small area than it is today) saw people from Boka Kotorska as “bad people” who are not heroes/warrior but traders, sailors and cunning folks. A total mess. 6) In my book, people in 2019 states can delcare themselves to be Jedi knights if they want, but I wll not permit historical revisionism of the chrachter of the 19th century and eariler people from modern-day Motenegro. Just because I am not from Motenegro does not mean that I do not know the hisotry of the region or that an editor from MNE is more entitled to give his say on the matter. 7) Even more so, those petty spins which want to declare my edits or edits by other people as “greater Serbia wanters” is nothing but a cheap political trick, and a despicable one. The problem is that is was repeated a number of times by politicians (like overlord Đukanović) and folks thing that it is something “normal” or “based on facts”. I am writing all of this because people do not realy understand Serbian-Montenegrin or Serb-Montenegrin thing. And a number of editors of Wiki like to support the idea of separate MNE ethnic indentity as a way to harm history of Serbs. I am not pointing fingers here but I had number of experience on this matter. Folks do not care about facts, just their feelings and vanity, which is a reason why they will come up with anything to protect their identity. For example, when revisionist/nationalistic modern-day historians in Motenegro are not able to disprove that there are mentions of only Serbs in historical documents all over, they claim that the word Serb meant Orthodox Christian, or that it was a mistake, or that it was a work of agents from Belgrade and so on. A complete mess, once again. I can’t image hardcore people and heroes like Marko Miljanov to have a change of heart, all of a sudden, because someone told him that he was a Serbs, that is just nuts in my book. As for this battle, there is a number of poems writter by duke Mirko who was the leader of Motenegrin (Serb) side in the battle - https://www.rastko.rs/rastko-cg/umjetnost/mpetrovic-spomenik.html If you read it carefully you will see that duke Mirko makes no difference on Serb-Montenegrin, which both are a part of his identity. And there is like a 100 mentions of Serbs alone. All in all, there is no reason to not include this template, just because there is another opinon which is not based on facts nor anything concrete, but feelings and 2019 revisionist views which are not objective or concrete. I firmly belive thatn English language Wikipedia should not be harmed by this sort of Balkan thinking, which prevents the one and only thruth to be presented to neutral readers. P.S: I was not able to find the translation, but this document is very valuable and I wish for Bob to see it.

24. oktobra 1756. godine crnogorski glavari su poslali svoj prvi (jedan od dva) odgovor mletačkom providuru Boldu u Kotoru na njegov Oglas o Crnogorcima.

budući mi pravoslavne vjere hr(is)ti(j)anske, i zakona svete crkve vastočne a roda častna i sveta slavenoserbskago od kojega su proishodili sv(e)ti c(a)ri serbski i gercogi černogorski, ravno tako patri(j)arhi i arhijere(j)i, sv(e)štennici i pošteni ljudi, glavari i oficeri...

Na svemu zboru černogorskom s Cetinje 24=ti oktom(bra): po našemu 1756=go ljeta

Mi Gubernator serdari i vojevode i knezovi, i kapitani sa svemi ofi cijeri i obštastvom černogorskim

Cheers and sorry for a mistake or two regarding my grammar, I am busy in RL and have no time to check it all over. Sadko (talk) 12:32, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Sadko, Montenegro's Slavic population was mostly Serbian till sometime in the late Ottoman period or early days of Montenegro's independence from the Ottoman empire. The Ottoman period heavily damaged the identity of many of Balkan communities. Many Serbs, Bulgarians, Albanians and so on changed their identity, even in cases when they kept their ancestors' languages. As a result, new ethnic groups emerged in the region: Montenegrins, Macedonians etc. The Greek identity of before the Ottoman period and that after it were not the same. The "modern" Greek identity has little to do with the Greek identity of ancient and medieval Greece. Most of the Albanians became Muslim and that in several ways changed the character of the ethnic group. Bosnia became sort of cultural mixture. Before the Ottoman period, northern Albania, Dalmatia, parts of Montenegro and Bosnia were culturally and economically part of the Western world. When the Ottoman period ended, they were not anymore. At that time they were the very definiton of poverty in Europe. Bulgaria and Greece expelled Muslims Bulgarians and Greeks (in the case of Greece, they were exchanged with Orthodox Greeks, Turks, Aromanians, Albanians and Slavs who in large parts suddenly became "Greek Macedonians"). Many Serbs became Muslim, and gradually opted for a Turkish, Bosniak or even an Albanian national cause. When the Ottoman period ended, Montenegro's Serbian speakers in large numbers had already lost their Serbian identity. Today's Montenegro has a fluid identity: one can be a Serb now and a Montenegrin after a few hours, or one can be an Albanian, Bosniak and Montenegrin in the same time. Hence, you need to provide here reliable sources that link the battle with Serbs. After that, clarifications and content could be added to the article. Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:27, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

This hypothesis,  although it sounds reasonable, is not per facts and historical documents. Your thesis that Ottoman Empire destroyed Serb identity of the population holds no ground, I am sorry. I could recommend you several books on the topic. Do you speak Serbian? I assume good faith and guess that you do not know enough on this part of Serb people history.  For example, the strongest Serb identity in the Balkans was in the 18th century Montengro. They were hardcore, nationalists if you like. Take a look at any official textbook (geography, or state laws) from the Principality that is Kingdom of Montenegro, they all say that they are Serbs of Christian Orthodox faith. Those books were not printed by people from Belgrade or manipulated in any manner as people like to present in 2019. You can also search for any early census done by the state of Montenegro (for example, 1909). Every book printed was in Serbian and most people were Serb patriots, like duke Marko Miljanov or duke Mirko (the original region of Montenegro was just 1/5 of modern-day country). His poems about Serbs heroes are on the link above.

You are also wrong about Macedonian question. They were pretty much Orthodox South Slavs and a solid part of them had Bulgarian identity, while a smaller part near the border of modern Serbia and western parts of the country (Brsjaci and other tribes) held somewhat of a Serb identity. As for history of modern-day Montenegro, it is absolutely nutters and insane to say that they were a separate ethnicity (that is the official historical policy, nothing more), there is next to none refs or sources for that. Most people claiming this sort of views are populists/publicists. Real historians are choosing a sneaky way, because they can not deny facts and claim that the idea that people from modern-day Montenegro were Serbs was an ideology which lasted for a time, mind you. It is a daily political sensitive touchy way of thinking without care for facts or sources.

Ottomans did change their idenitity but not in a way that they became something entirely different but more unique than most of other Serbs (that is so naive, and not possible for highlanders and tribal culture). Similarities can be found with Serbs in Herzegovina region. They also have clans and so on and so on.

The whole reasoning is a logical mistake, it is not up to me to give proof that 19th century people from MNE were Serbs, that is something which is well-known and documented (and it would be crazy if you would go searching for a bunch of books just to proove it to you), on the contrary, people who claim that they were a separate and unique identity should do give us some proofs. That is how the basic logical thinking operate (or I was told so during my school years…).

Maybe @Antidiskriminator: can give us another POV or info? Sadko (talk) 19:14, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Of course not. Somebody who do not AGF might see it as Wikipedia:Canvassing. You are free to use talkpage at WP Serbia and other related projects. All the best.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:30, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

I had in mind to broader the ongoing discussion/not make it a 2 man show, but I can see that it can be interpreted that way. Sadko (talk) 19:56, 21 September 2019 (UTC)

Sadko, I am not a historian and I do not aim to lecture people or give a precise summary of the history of the Balkans. The whole point of my previous post is this: the identity of Montenegro's people in that time and today has been fluid and up to debate. You can't merely call them "Serbs" because you think sources do so (after all, you are not providing academic sources for that). I have to go rn but before I do so I am placing here two links. The two reliable sources treat the battle as a Montenegro vs the Ottoman Empire one, not as a war of Serbs. [1][2]. Your words that Real historians are choosing a sneaky way, because they can not deny facts and claim that the idea that people from modern-day Montenegro were Serbs was an ideology which lasted for a time make me think whether discussing reliable sources here make sense at all or not. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:23, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Their identity became fluid only in the 20th century, due to Christmas Uprising and new Communist regime and their politics. That is the same century in which the basis for modern Macedonian identity and ethnicity was decided and made. Montenegrin/Serbs was the same thing up to that historical moment. That can be seen from poems by the very leader of this batte (Rastko book link). It is not up to me to give proof that they were Serbs (that is like giving proof that 19th century Bavarians were Germans). Naturally, because it is and was a battle of the state of Montenegro. You did not understand me and I can see why. Real historians (from modern-day Montenegro) are choosing a sneaky way, because they can not deny facts and claim that the idea that people from modern-day Montenegro were Serbs was an ideology which lasted for a time. That is the same line with a number of people (even academics) in North Macedonia who want to declare ancient Macedonians as Slavs, it just a variation. Another info for you, what is today the city of Cetinje was founded by Serbs from Zlatbor, you will not hear that in MNE, because people in the Balkans care fore their agenda and nod cold facts. In the same manner a number of Serbs like to dismiss the facts that a number of Vlachs, Aromanians and other ethnicites were assimilated by Serbs. Did you note that only the two of us are discussing? That is a problem in my book, because there is no interest from the other user in question to discuss, only to undo, or it seems that way. Sadko (talk) 16:38, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

I know Montenegrin governments have been trying to erase Serbian culture and harras Serbs throughout the country for a long time. The identity of many of the country's citizens is fluid and that might change it in the future: Montenegro will probably become Serbian-majority again. Who knows. However, facts are facts. A separate Montenegrin identity started to emerge during the Ottoman period [3][4]. Hence, the addition of such templates does not seem to be suitable. The identity of Montenegro's population continues to be a controversial issue and our discussion is not changing that. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:58, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

I was not able to open the first book. As for the second one, I do not think that you are interpreting it well. The way I see it, their core identity is about the fall of Serbian Empire and the whole Kosovo myth, which is 100% correct and can be seen in the writings and speeches of Petar II Petrović-Njegoš and king Nicholas I of Montenegro (take a look on his biography). I agree that the redefinition started in the Ottoman period, but there is no evidence that it was somewhat of a separate ethnicity, none. People from modern day-Montenegro started to think of themselves as more special as Serbs, more independent and simply better. Just take a look at the works by Petar I Petrović-Njegoš (a program for liberation of all Serbs and so on). The notion that something is controversial just because there is a different opinion does not make sense to me. Such topics should be discussed. I saw no arguments given by Bob in this discussion. Sadko (talk) 21:23, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Search for "montenegrin identity 19th century" on GoogleBooks to access the first book. It gives a good summary of the topic. The second book says that the relative independence (parts of) today's Montenegro had during the Ottoman period served as the basis for the new Montenegrin identity. Hence, when the Ottoman period ended, a separate Montenegrin consciousness existed, in a form or another. Frankly, I do not have enough time to continue with this discussion. What I had to say has already been said. If you still think the template should be added, open a RfC. If the RfC' conclusion is the addition of the template, nobody can prevent you from doing that. Cheers, Ktrimi991 (talk) 14:38, 26 September 2019 (UTC)