Talk:Battle of Erastfer

Military history: Baltic states / European / Nordic / Early Modern

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About adding unsourced figures

One user is constantly adding unsourced figures to the article claiming that they are either "Original numbers" or "figueres of the author who founded this article" (of course that's not a valid argument, and besides that the figure was in fact not the "original" one in this article as s/he claims). He never gives any sources for the claimed figure of 1000 killed. Altough there is a source (a Swedish encyclopedia) available online that says there were about 3000 killed at the battle[1]. Note that the same user is doing the same disruptive edits to several other articles. Närking (talk) 22:11, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Irrelavent. You are proven wrong, as the encyliopedia is from IMperial swedish times. Also, 1. My edits are disruptive int he eyes of a fool. 2. Ad hominem isn't welcome here, unlike you think.

First of all the Swedish encyclopedia was printed in 1907 and I guess most people would know Sweden wasn't an empire at that time. Even the union with Norway had been disolved. And secondly it won't help your arguments by calling other people "fools". And please tell me where the figure 1000 comes from? Do you have a source or not? It also would be good if you signed your edits here. Närking (talk) 18:39, 21 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Numbers

Your only source clearly states that there were 3800 men on swedish side, where does the number 2200 came from? And some russian sources, this one for example, written by Yevgeny Tarle states that there was 7000 strong swedish force. --ZeD unknown (talk) 16:08, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but the source I have mentioned above (and that has been deleted from the article) clearly says 2,200 men. I guess the figure 7,000 must refer to the total Swedish army in Livonia at the time, but not present at Erastfer. Närking (talk) 18:42, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Found it now, thanks. Well there were 2200 vs ~12000 according to swedish source, and ~7000 vs ~8000 according to russian one (it cites "The Journal Of Peter The Great" btw). Actually I think it was something in the middle, as always. But maybe it'll be correct to mention both those numbers in article. NPOV and such.

P.s. Total number of swedish men left in Livonia, according to that book by Tarle was something about 15000. --ZeD unknown (talk) 18:59, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's of course always hard to know exactly how strong the forces were in reality. Most often the regiments were not full because of wounds or illnesses. During the week I will check one article about the Livonian army that deals with it in detail. Närking (talk) 20:10, 1 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have now checked Otto Sjögren's article "W. A. v. Schlippenbachs lifländska här" in Historisk Tidskrift 1896. He has studied the forces in Livonia in detail and he gives the figure of about 6,000 men under Schlippenbach's command at the time (after Karl XII had left Livonia with the Swedish main army). There also were minor local militias, perhaps 600 men. At the time of the battle at Erastfer Schlippenbach only had about 2,200 men available at the site. About 1600 were Estonian and Finnish cavalry. Sjöberg also gives the figure 1,000 as a possible figure for the killed Swedes. As an example he tells that Skytte´s battalion of about 250 men only had 84 men left on January 8, 1702. Närking (talk) 22:01, 2 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's good to know that those ~7000 swedes were not invented by Tarle but actually existed :) As for the 2200 used in battle: well it's kind of a failure, I think, for the general - not to gather all that he could for a somewhat major battle. Anyway thanks for your efforts. --ZeD unknown (talk) 10:10, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Later at the battle of Hummelshof/Sagnitz on July 19, 1702 Schlippenbach had more forces under his command, about 6,000 men. Although he was anyway hopelessly outnumbered by Boris Sheremetev's force of about 23,000 men.

By the way what do the Russian sources say about Russian losses in these battles? Närking (talk) 21:37, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fof further information you can also look here: [2] --Алексей03 (talk) 10:12, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]