Talk:Battle of Czarne

A fact from Battle of Czarne appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 31 July 2012 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that a majority of German-Swedish forces in the Battle of Czarne mutinied, capitulated and then joined the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth Army?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2012/July. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Battle of Czarne.

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Untitled

@Volunteer Marek, you do realize that this is straight from Swedish sources? "The German mercenaries suffered from low morale due to how things went, and started a mutiny in which they negotiated with the Polish troops behind Streiff's back and it resulted in a Swedish surrender" With that said, this happened during the "pre-battle". I think Swedish sources are more accurate than Polish of what went wrong in the Swedish defences.. Ignoring one sides sources is not acceptable. And hey, how about you add some trustworthy of your own to the article?Imonoz (talk) 13:48, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My understanding is that they mutinied on April 16th and the surrender was on April 17th. So the Germans were not actually incorporated into the Polish army until after the surrender, though they mutinied before it. I'm pretty sure this is from Podhorecki but I will admit that I'm doing it a bit from memory (and pl wiki) - I'm traveling right now and will have access to the book in a few days.

Honestly, I don't think we are disagreeing that much. The Swedes made a pretty disastrous charge at Polish position (this is the "how things went" in your source), afterward German mercenaries mutinied, which led to the surrender, and then as part of the agreement they were incorporated into the Polish army. Btw, didn't some Swedish units also switch sides? VolunteerMarek 13:55, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Or to put it differently, what I think we need here is more details about the course of the battle. It's the rough generalizations which are leading to the disagreement. I was holding off on doing that until I have the book in my hand.VolunteerMarek 13:58, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think this [1] edit gets it pretty much right.VolunteerMarek 14:01, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Allright, I putted in some text from one Swedish source of the "Swedish side" of how things went, ofcource if you want you can fix the text a bit and put in some more Polish detailed knowledge of what was going on, just don't remove too much. However, if it's possible add some Polish sources if you got acces to ones from where you're travelling now. If you think the text was a bit nationalistic you can rewrite the things, just dont delete the principals of what I wroteImonoz (talk) 14:06, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

So, Podhorecki gives a different account, in which he doesn't distinguish between Swedish and German troops much; he is not very clear but he seems to suggests that only the officers were Swedish and the rest of the troops, German, recruited in Germany (but for the most parts he calls them all "Swedes"). He also mentions that in the final battle, the troops mutined, arrested and "stole from" the two named Swedish commanders. So according to him, the Swedish army did not surrender because the commanders couldn't trust the soldiers - the commanders never surrendered, they were deposed by the mutineers which then surrendered. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:21, 20 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

B-class review

Passing for WPPOLAND following milhist assessment. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 22:06, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]