Talk:Battle of Antonov Airport/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Neutrality in this page

A lot of the sources being used in this wiki page are either Ukrainian, or pro-Ukrainian.

There is talk of Georgians running over VDV paratroopers and of Ukrainians pushing the Russians into the forest.

I would doubt that these things happened due to little or no evidence.

I would recommend adding a Russian perspective/bias section. Formatted like the Battle of Khasham wiki 2600:1014:B040:B8BB:A596:65A6:AECC:CE31 (talk) 20:44, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

not only loaded with pure propaganda, but also riddled with errors (it is caused by wanting to create and maintain narratives in the communication war). For example, the header image says that the smoke in the distance is the burning An-225, when the plane was actually destroyed 3 days later. Even in the video from which that image was taken, you can see the plane intact (as seen in the third image). also seen intact in several subsequent videos filmed on the ground and from drones until the Ukrainian artillery attack on Russian forces at the airport destroyed it (the last video where it is seen intact, filmed before the attack, perhaps at noon on the 26th or 27th, the vehicles on the parking are seen dispersing and an AA gun firing to the north, presumably towards an observation drone). 152.207.201.100 (talk) 01:46, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

If you have actual sources for your claims aside of your personal "knowledge" of the battle, feel free to add them here so that the article can be adjusted. Applodion (talk) 12:35, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

I have edited the image caption, since we can’t determine what is actually on fire. The original source of the screenshot is unavailable, and what do we actually know about it? Do we even know the date and time of it, whether the two photos are from the same video, and so on?

I don’t see how the caption was “propaganda.” Looks more like a not unreasonable but baseless assumption. —Michael Z. 18:51, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

What is burning is an An-148 in the aircraft parking lot and a little further away, at the other end of the runway, a fuel tank.

Alright, let's see some videos published by the Russian Defense Ministry (right now can't find the primary sources, these are copies) :

[1] : 1:43 - the header image , 2:06 third image, the An-225 can be seen. 2:09, 2:14 and 2:47 the An-148 plane burning on the runway (closer images on the next videos).

[2] : 2:21 Mriya is intact, 1:08, 1:14, the burning plane

[3] : 0:22, 10:17

[4] : 0:02

Then there is another video from a Ukrainian drone of the moment when the Russian reinforcement forces arrive to the airport in a big column of vehicles, on the 25th or 26th, but I can't find a link, just a telegram. also some pictures on on the ground. The 225 was intact.

[5] : 0:0, last known image of An-225 before being destroyed, February 27 (possibly at noon, due to the shadows), Russian vehicles dispersing (incoming attack?) and an AA gun firing to the north (0:19 - 0:30) to some aircraft or drone. The next known image is taken from a Ukrainian drone flying north (!!) of the hangar and the plane has just been destroyed: [6] [7] (the whole image was here in this WkPd article some months ago, before been removed).

[8] : the airplane right after the attack.

And is not only the caption, the content is it's full of it. just looking at the "sources", reading what is obvious propaganda and knowing that "we" are in the middle of a communication war, is enough. I've been feeling sorry for WkPd for a few years. 152.207.201.1 (talk) 00:51, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not allow us to insert our own interpretations of events into the article. If you want changes, please provide secondary sources (such as newspapers or military analysts) to back up your interpretations. As of now, you are just complaining about the propaganda, while only providing your own beliefs about what a video might showcase. Don't get me wrong - you could be completely correct. Yet we still need secondary sources. Be so kind and provide such a source, and we can adjust the article accordingly. Applodion (talk) 22:17, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

military analysts and historians, ok (but be careful). but newspapers? reeeally? Haven't you seen the media this year? (and for a long time for that matter, but this year has been extreme) 152.207.115.157 (talk) 15:31, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

You can use any reliable newspaper, not just Western media. I recently found a good article on a pro-Russian militia in a Pakistani newspaper. Applodion (talk) 20:21, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

I already updated the caption. That sounds interesting, but I don’t have time to go through it, and it doesn’t relate to improving the article.

I have no sympathy for non-specific cries of “the sources are propaganda.” Non-specific complaining is for some WP:CHAT site, and not article talk pages.

If you can offer specific suggestions for improving the text along with supporting sources, please do so. Otherwise, don’t waste your and our time.  —Michael Z. 00:51, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Casualties

I think there should be more information on casualties, what we have at present is extremely vague. However I struggle to find any reliable sources on this. Does anyone want to try? 118.211.121.167 (talk) 09:47, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

According to Ukrainian soldiers who were taken captive on that day (and later exchanged), they were apparently "forced" to load dead bodies for evacuation. They counted 80. I doubt reliable figures currently exist for either side. https://globalnews.ca/news/9491396/ukraine-hostomel-battle-antonov-airport/

"The Russian Defence Ministry claimed that Russian forces suffered no casualties that day, and Ukraine suffered heavy losses. But Vitalii Rudenko (a commander of the Ukrainian airfield’s national guard base) says he didn’t lose a single man. One was injured. Russia, on the other hand, lost many, he says, because the soldiers that were captured later told him they were forced to load their bodies for evacuation. They counted 80." FuryMadine (talk) 15:12, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

A photograph that appears to be sourced from a Russian Federation website is claiming certain cockpit photos have a story behind them. The story is of rescued Russian soldiers. If the source has evidence of this rescue, more pictures should be added otherwise this claim should be edited to "This is a view from a cockpit"

and perhaps a few details that can be verified from the photographs submitted. Otherwise this is dubious and also likely biased.

For example, this is also equally verifiable

Russian airborne troops who were repelled by defenders of Antonov Airport

Spectre9 (talk) 01:05, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Casualties

Please add casualties https://www.bbc.com/russian/extra/zub490ht8o/russian-deaths-in-ukraine : Например, только за три дня штурма аэропорта Гостомель под Киевом Россия потеряла убитыми по меньшей мере 125 десантников. Реальное число погибших в эти дни может быть выше, поскольку мы опираемся только на открытые источники информации.

For example, in just three days of storming the Gostomel airport near Kyiv, Russia lost at least 125 paratroopers killed. The real death toll these days may be higher, since we rely only on open sources of information. Manyareasexpert (talk) 21:04, 22 May 2023 (UTC)