Talk:Battle for the Sun

Album cover

Are we sure that's the album cover? Neon Flow (talk) 11:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I would say it's too early to know for sure. StevePrutz (talk) 15:28, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

due to the album cover on the spotify sample [1] yes.

Of course, now it's official, but in March there wasn't any confirmation. Besides the cover on the article in March was slightly different from the real one (it had no letters). Neon Flow (talk) 18:22, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Move

I will be moving this page to a more grammatically-correct title sometime today. StevePrutz (talk) 15:28, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Article title caps/move

Please read WP:ALBUMCAPS. I realize that the Placebo website lists the album title and tracklist's songs in All Capital Letters, however it does not fit guidelines, and we cannot assume that the webmaster is a part of the actual band and their creative vision. Be ready for an admin to move the article. StevePrutz (talk) 12:50, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Writing credits?

It's usual for album pages to have details of writing credits for each song, even if it's just a note at the top saying All songs by Placebo - could someone who has a copy please check this and add the details? ~dom Kaos~ (talk) 11:26, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

All songs are credited to Placebo,except Ashtray Heart(credited to Brian Molko).Most of the album was written before Steve joined the band and in a radio interview about Battle for the sun(the song)Molko says that it's writen by him and Olsdal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stefanminogue (talk • contribs) 22:21, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Official capitalization

There is no longer any doubt (as there might have been up until around June 2009) as to the official capitalization of the name of this album. Placebo, the band, have named their album Battle For The Sun. This name appears on every single publication made by the band, including on the album art itself, the band's official website, the digital releases made by the band (such as the ten-track live album collected from the band's 2009-2010 performances, which also demonstrates that the title track's name is capitalized the same way), and simply every other written expression on or about the album. Placebo's alteration of regular in-sentence capitalization rules, when made in the title of an album, is both usual and something which does not merit any elaborate discussion (among other reasons, because bands can name their albums however they wish).

So, there has been a capitalization mistake on Wikipedia. For some reason, the title of an article about this album was capitalized the wrong way, and did not reflect the true name of the album; the problem lasted for over a year. Today I fixed that mistake. I tend to disagree that simple evidence about reality justifies the possibility of debate, but still I am adding this post on the talk page, just to make sure everyone knew what is the exact capitalization, as selected and published by the band themselves, of this album's name.

Thanks! A.R. (talk) 15:56, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "official capitalization". If you went by the album art, the title would be BATTLE FOR THE SUN (all caps). On Wikipedia we use standard English capitalization rules, except in extraordinary circumstances. For album titles, this means we do not capitalize prepositinos (for) or articles (the). Please do not move articles in contravention of Wikipedia's naming conventions. For more information, please see WP:ALBUMCAPS. --IllaZilla (talk) 16:50, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that is true in regard to the album art cover, and only there. In all other publications (please see the two website links I provided, which are only two examples out of many) made officially by the band, the album is called "Battle For The Sun". There is also no doubt that artistic choices, made by the artists themselves, override general Wikipedia guidelines (otherwise, the band "dEUS" would appear here as "Deus", etc. etc.) It really is a black-and-white issue. Thanks! A.R. (talk) 16:58, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

An additional remark: there sure is such a thing as "official capitalization". Undoubtedly, if a band named its album in all caps (for example), as part of its artistic statement, we on Wikipedia would have no right to ignore that selection.

And certainly, the difference between "for the" and "For The" adds no difficulty in searching and linking to the article, which is yet another reason to see this as a non-issue.

I should respectfully ask that WP administrators (as all other users) handling this article will attend to the name given to the album by its creators. Thanks! A.R. (talk) 17:07, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Move warring

Knock it out, all of you. WP:BRD. When you have a consensus, I'll unprotect and move it to whatever the consensus is. If you can't come to a consensus, consider filing a WP:RFC to get more voices involved. - UtherSRG (talk) 16:42, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

This is really a black-and-white issue and does not require an RFC. Wikipedia has article naming conventions, and A.R.'s moves go against those conventions. I don't see how a discussion will somehow make this not be the case. I went through the proper procedure to reverse his moves, and he should not have re-moved them a second time. I have re-marked the titles for speedy so they can be moved back, and asked for them to be move-protected. If he moves them again, I will take it to ANI. --IllaZilla (talk) 16:50, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

IllaZilla, please see my remarks above. Thanks! A.R. (talk) 16:58, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

AR - Please read Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music)#Bands, albums and songs. - UtherSRG (talk) 17:06, 22 May 2010 (UTC)    (If you would like to continue this conversation, please do so here and let me know.)

I have raised the issue at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Move-warring at Battle for the Sun so that it may be speedily resolved. A molehill has suddenly become a mountain. Wikipedia has naming conventions, and specific rules for album and song titles based on standard English capitalization rules. There are literally tens of thousands of articles about albums and songs that are titled according to WP's conventions (keeping preposition, articles, and coordinating conjunctions lower-case) rather than the way they appear on album art, websites, etc. Clear and widespread consensus across the project is to follow WP's naming conventions except in extraordinary circumstances, and this is not such a circumstance. --IllaZilla (talk) 17:18, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

As I am sure IllaZilla and other users are aware, my edits were done in good faith. I, of course, accept upon myself the law of the land. It should be noted, however, that the question of whether or not the capitalization announced by the artist might override generally-applied WP guidelines is not clearly answered in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (music)#Bands, albums and songs. This more than partly explains the reason I made the moves in the first place. Perhaps these tens of thousands of articles about albums and singles, that IllaZilla mentions, do have incorrect titles, but that depends on resolving the "overriding" question. That question should be answered by discussion among Wikipedians, although I'm not quite sure on which of WP's discussion pages it would fit best. Thanks! A.R. (talk) 17:41, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest WT:ALBUMS as a starting point, if you want to address the overriding issue. I have no doubt that your edits were in good faith, I just wish you had waited for discussion to take place before moving the articles a second time. --IllaZilla (talk) 17:47, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

References