Talk:Basie & Zoot

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Basie & Zoot/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: AstonishingTunesAdmirer (talk · contribs) 00:35, 17 April 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: TechnoSquirrel69 (talk · contribs) 03:01, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

This article looks pretty interesting! I'll have some comments up in the next few days, if not the next few hours. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 03:01, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

Lead

• The article seems undecided on whether to use the year 1975 or 1976. The infobox uses both years in the artist chronologies, which needs to be fixed, and the article is categorized into Category:1975 albums. I would recommend going with 1976 as that was the year of release.
  • That's what started this whole rewrite. An IP editor changed the release date from 1975 to 1976. I started looking for sources for that, but I guess I forgot to make sure it's 1976 in other places. Fixed.
• "recorded on April 9, 1975, during a recording session" seems a bit repetitive.
  • Fixed.
• using Basie's band Count Basie Orchestra → using the Count Basie Orchestra. This also applies to § Recording and release.
  • Fixed.
• album, consisting → album consisting
  • Fixed.
• "The album was reviewed positively" should have a qualifier like mostly or generally to reflect Norris's criticism of the album.
  • Fixed.
• Rephrase/re-pipe links in the phrase "1977 Grammy award for the best jazz solo performance" to "1977 Grammy Award for Best Jazz Performance" or "1977 Grammy Award for Best Jazz Performance". This also applies to § Accolades.
  • Fixed.

Background

• "the partnership proved prolific" imparts no new information and seems less than neutral.
  • Fixed.
• "After a brief period of uncertainty in the early 1950s," sounds like it wants elaboration. What was Sims uncertain about? Why? If he wasn't recording or performing during this time, was he doing anything else?
  • Uncertain about his future and whether he should continue performing. "[H]e found few performing opportunities and wound up working as a house painter". I didn't want to go into too much detail as it's not particularly important for this article. How about "After struggling to find performing opportunities and briefly working as a house painter in the early 1950s..."?

    Sounds good to me; I was simply highlighting the vagueness of the original statement and understand that not all of the details would be appropriate to include in this article. —TS

• Related to the above, I would avoid repeating "1950s" in the same or adjacent sentences.
  • I could replace it with "by the middle of the decade", but I'm unsure whether or not that's ambiguous.

    It would depend on how you rephrase the earlier half of the sentence. It's not a sticking point by any means, though, and I'm sure you'll figure it out. —TS

• The relatively long quote from Swenson could be mostly paraphrased into regular prose quite easily, but I won't push it if you're not inclined to do so.
  • Wouldn't that essentially make this sentence repeat the previous one, about him collaborating with numerous artists? It's not that long of a quote, IMO.

Recording and release

• It could be a nice touch to include contemporaneous images of Basie and Sims in this section or the previous one, but that's entirely optional.
  • I thought about it, but figured that they are on the album cover already. Added.
• "Granz decided against recording the entire band" reads oddly considering we just learned the Orchestra was on tour in the previous sentence. Rephrase or remove as you see fit.
  • Maybe there is a better way to say this, but it's definitely important enough detail to keep. They were touring with the band. It would be logical to record Basie with them. But Granz brought Zoot Sims instead. That allowed Basie to switch from organ to piano (which I assume would get buried behind the rest of orchestra otherwise). Perhaps, "Instead of recording the entire band, Granz chose to focus on Basie and his piano performance"?

    Ah, I had missed that Basie was on tour with the Orchestra at the time, so that makes more sense now. I now think the sentence I highlighted works fine, but the previous one could do with some tweaking like you suggested to contextualize the session. —TS

• "previously played with him" It's ambiguous who this pronoun is referring to.
  • I don't believe Norman Granz played anything himself, he was an organizer. But I changed it anyway.
• excluding → except or with the exception of
  • Fixed.
• on Basie and Friends compilation album → on the compilation album Basie and Friends
  • Fixed.
• I'd like a year in parentheses for Basie and Friends to match Basie Jam above.
  • Done.

Composition

• A 28-second sample of "I Never Knew".
  • Done.
• The sample caption needs a source.
  • I'm afraid I can't find any. It is not even an obscure album, it won a Grammy. But there are close to no sources available online. Whatever I could find at Google Books or Open Library doesn't discuss this fragment. And I believe it is the best part that could be used as you can hear all 4 musicians (unlike other parts discussed in reviews). Regardless, in my opinion, these are straightforward descriptive statements: everyone knows how a piano sounds, how a saxophone sounds, they can hear drums. It is not an analysis, not something like the song's key that needs special education to confirm.
• I would put the clause "Basie's renditions of popular jazz songs" between dashes to clarify it's referring to the standards and not an independent member of the list.
  • Done.
• Does McDonough have anything to elaborate on "the hummingbird tempo"? The phrase rings of something that would make sense in old-school jazz circles, but I certainly don't understand it and I doubt a general audience will either.
  • Not really. The full quote is: "The rapport with Basie is supremely simpatico throughout, and especially engaging at the hummingbird tempo of I Never Knew". I don't believe it's anything jazz-related (a Pitchfork reviewer liked the imagery and used it to describe a hip-hop track). It's a metaphor, comparing the song's fast tempo to a hummingbird and the swift movement of its wings.
• high tempo → high-tempo
  • Fixed.
• I would advise linking all the standards as in § Track listing.
  • Done.

Critical reception

• Move the ratings table for the retrospective reviews into its subsection.
  • Done.
• Uses of contemporary (new, modern) should be replaced with contemporaneous (of the same time period) — it's easy to get these confused!
  • ESL issues, fixed.
• "whose bass is 'sensitively walking...' " inappropriately puts the quote in Wikipedia's voice. Rephrase so it's clear the words are Rusch's.
  • Fixed, I think?
• the performance of Sims → Sims's performance
  • Fixed.
• "all time, noting that" is not neutral in this context per MOS:SAID.
  • Fixed.
• piano & organ → piano, organ to match Norman Granz below. (Not in this section but I didn't want a header with only one comment!)
  • Fixed. I used the spelling from the album's liner notes, but it's not essential.

References

Citation numbers from this revision.

• I would recommend adding archive links to the web citations unless the URL already leads to an archive.
  • Done.
• Citation 24 is formatted oddly. I would bring that in line with the style used for the other references.
  • Bare links to AllMusic were mass replaced with {{AllMusic}} at some point. I tend to keep the template, even if it looks slightly weird. Replaced it with {{Cite web}} in this instance, though.
• I wouldn't say citation 31 is strictly necessary, as the track listing and personnel have the album as the implied primary source in this article.
  • I've seen other editors delete these or put {{citation needed}} unless there is a source, so better safe than sorry.
• I'm assuming good faith for the citations to offline sources that I can't perform spot-checks for.
  • If you need access to any of the sources, let me know. Most of these were available through Google Books (but only as snippets, so needed a bit of work to access) and one was a scan provided by a fellow editor.

    Thanks for the tip. I went through and did a couple more spot-checks; no issues found. —TS

Media

• File:Basiezoot.jpeg is a non-free image with appropriate tags and fair use rationale.
• File:Count Basie and Zoot Sims - I Never Knew.ogg is a non-free audio with appropriate tags and fair use rationale and complies with the guideline on sample length.

Discussion

Nice work on this nominee so far, AstonishingTunesAdmirer! Feel free to respond to my comments in line without crossing them out. If you're interested in picking up a review yourself, I have a short- to medium-length article up for grabs. Let me know if you have any questions! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 05:13, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

@TechnoSquirrel69 Thank you for your review! I've fixed most of these and replied to the rest. AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 14:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

Good work on this article, I'm satisfied with the changes you've made, so I'm now passing this nominee. Congratulations! I have a couple of minor suggestions which I've left as replies in line above, but they aren't enough to hold up the review. Don't forget your window to nominate this at Did you know? in the next seven days — I think you could find some interesting hooks to run with. —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 20:45, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: withdrawn by nominator, closed by Narutolovehinata5 talk 11:06, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

( Comment or view )

( Article history links:

• Basie & Zoot
• Classic Columbia, Okeh and Vocalion: Lester Young with Count Basie (1936–1940)

)

• ... that 40 years after his sessions with Lester Young, pianist Count Basie recorded an album with Young-inspired saxophonist Zoot Sims?

• Source: https://www.newspapers.com/article/asbury-park-press-basie-zoot/145146966/

• Reviewed:

Improved to Good Article status by AstonishingTunesAdmirer (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.

AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 02:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC).

• The hook as currently written does not seem to meet WP:DYKINT as it is reliant on knowledge of people that may not be well-known or recognizable to readers, along with the hook wording requiring knowledge of these people to be understood. As such, a different hook will need to be proposed here. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 09:58, 21 August 2024 (UTC)
  • I believe it is quite unusual (unusual enough for multiple journalists to notice it), regardless of who these artists are, but that's not something I want to argue over. There is nothing more interesting about this album that I could find in the sources available to me. As such, I would like to withdraw this nomination. AstonishingTunesAdmirer 連絡 10:54, 21 August 2024 (UTC)