Talk:Bartholomew James Stubbs

Links in citations, article name and Stubbs Terrace

Great article! 3 points though:

1. Where possible, if you find articles on the Trove website, there is a "Cite/Wikipedia citation" button at the top of the fix text section on the left hand side, that automatically creates a formatted citation. You often have to fix up the heading and/or the newspaper link (remove Perth Gazette for The West is a common one), but it is a great help.
2. Should this page really be titled Jim Stubbs? The guiding rule here is WP:COMMONNAME, but given his standing and the formal nature of the time, most sources refer to him as "Mr BJ Stubbs" or "Mr Stubbs", which isn't much help. Unless he was commonly called Bartholomew James, the page shouldn't be here, but moved to either Jim or Bartholomew Stubbs, with redirects from all of the variations to let people find the page whichever way they search.
3. Great that you found two offline links that indicate that Stubbs Terrace was named after him, but the City of Subiaco website contradicts that, stating that it was named after Sydney Stubbs (who also should have an article!). Without seeing your refs, or the Subiaco.wa.gov original ref (what does "ref:365/1938 p.95" mean?) we can't really be sure. If you think that your refs are better, you should let Subi know!

Thanks again for a great story about a great West Aussie (even if he was born an othersider!). Cheers, The-Pope (talk) 08:47, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

I think the current title is probably the best one, given the points you've made. He wasn't commonly enough known as "Jim Stubbs" for that to be the common name, nor was he commonly known as "Bartholomew Stubbs", so IMHO in these situations it's best to go with the full name. It was essentially the closest thing to a common name, with abbreviations depending on the setting.

As for the street naming, it would seem a bit counter-intuitive if it were indeed named after Sydney? This might be one worth contacting the council about, who can verify if their site is correct and provide an explanation if so. The Drover's Wife (talk) 10:15, 4 January 2015 (UTC)

Appreciate the comments, guys. First, a word on his name. In his younger days (and later among close friends and family), he was known as "Jim", never Bartholomew. In some early newspaper articles, for example, in his involvement in the 8 hours celebrations, he was often cited in the press as "J. Stubbs" or occassionally as "Jas. Stubbs". Sometimes his name appeared as "J.B. Stubbs". However, as he became more involved in politics he was generally referred to in print as B.J. Stubbs or occassionally as B. Jas. Stubbs. By the time of his death, most news articles used "Lieut. B.J. Stubbs". In more recent years, there's been a tendency to call him "Bartholomew Stubbs" (e.g. state parliament website and Phillip Pendal, David Black and Harry Phillips, "Parliament, mirror of the people: members of the Parliament of Western Australia, 1890-2007". Parliament of Western Australia, 2007.) Those who knew him as "Jim" are few and far between nowadays, and I'm guessing that the full name might be the easiest for those wishing to search for information about him.

As for the street name, I've been in touch with the Subiaco Council (Subi Museum co-ordinator) and I understand the current street name booklet that they produce is currently under revision. Earlier versions than the one currently on their website used to give both BJ Stubbs and Sydney Stubbs. Current researchers suggest the street was more than likely named after BJ Stubbs on account of his active social and political involvement in the Subi district and some other streets nearby are apparently named after prominent persons with a military background. The street was originally built and named by the Subiaco Council in 1928-29. Later the street came under the jurisdiction of the Claremont countil and I think that's when some started to think it might have been named after Sydney Stubbs, who was once the mayor of Claremont. The Subi museum hopes to check the Council archives in the near future to see if there's any written reference that might definitively determine who it was named after. Until then there's some strong "oral tradition" among BJ's descendants and indisputable evidence of his strong involvement in the district, not to mention several secondary sources (as quoted). HOpefully within a few weeks I might find out what the council minutes say. Ultimately I'll be happy to go with what the new version of the council booklet says, but for now I think there's more evidence and sufficient sources to leave it as is. Nfren (talk) 05:06, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

Normally the best evidence for the street name would be when it was first named. Trove seems to have mentions of it from about 1928, but could it have been proposed/gazetted earlier, but not built until then? And it could have been proposed as "Stubbs Street/Road/Avenue" or similar, to make trove searches harder (and the s character seems to be often misread by the OCR). The terrace does start in Claremont though, and Sydney was about half way through his 36 years as the member for Wagin in 1928, so he would have been in the news. But would they really have named a road after an ex-Mayor but still active politician, who'd left the area for somewhere else over a dead war hero? As for the article name, given what you've said, I'd be inclined to move it to Bartholomew Stubbs, to reflect the current common usage, and a name sometimes used is better than a name never used. Redirects will take care of the rest. Good luck with the council historian, hopefully they'll find something definitive (and publish it!). Regards, The-Pope (talk) 13:51, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

I am going to remove the disputed tag from the article. It now appears more definitive that Bartholomew James Stubbs was the origin of the street name. This source which is a more up-to-date list of street names from the City of Subiaco, no longer says Sydney Stubbs is the name origin of the street. The image above/to the right, which is a sign appearing outside Daglish train station, also says that Bartholomew Stubbs is the name origin of the street. There doesn't seem to be any sources left saying Sydney Stubbs is who the street is named after. Steelkamp (talk) 13:03, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

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