Talk:Barmherziges Herze der ewigen Liebe, BWV 185

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Barmherziges Herze der ewigen Liebe, BWV 185/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 09:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

I saw your subtle hint and am happy to review. I don't think my knowledge of classical music is as good as yours, and I really should spend more time listening to this instead of this. However, a quick look through the article shows no obvious problems.

Specific comments will follow. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 09:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Lead

• At around 1,150 words the second paragraph of the lead in particular is a bit "top heavy", I wonder if it could be trimmed down a bit?

I split it, but think we need most of what's in it. Dropping the publication in the lead. --GA

• Johann Agricola is a dablink, you probably want Johann Friedrich Agricola

good catch! --GA

• Weimar should be linked on first mention (and then unlinked on the second paragraph)

taken --GA

• The sentence beginning "The cantata is scored" would sit better on the first paragraph, leaving the second dedicated to the cantana's history

We are in a series (which was there before me), compare BWV 7: first background, then description (text and scoring), then performance - makes sense to me. In the articles, the details of scoring and structure come later, again before me, again makes the sense that some readers will not be interested in that part at all. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:55, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay, the three paragraph split looks good Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:56, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

History and words

• "specifically cantatas for the Schlosskirche (palace church)" - neither the term "Schlosskirche" or the translation "palace church" appears in the source given

I used the German version of Dürr first, switched to the translation only recently, fix the ref. Schloss has an article, but is often translated wrong, - "palace church" is my translation, - some say chapel but what you see on the image is not exactly what I would call a chapel ;) - See also Schloss Weimar, guess by whom? --GA

Okay, understood Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Franck stays close to the theme of the gospel" - as this part is referring to history, wouldn't "Franck stayed" would be grammatically better?

taken --GA

• Most of the second paragraph is cited to a source that has the words and an English translation, and a very brief summary of the work, but nothing else. Is an inline citation missing?
• "The cantata is closed by the first stanza of Johann Agricola's hymn "Ich ruf zu dir, Herr Jesus Christ" (c. 1530)." - the source given says 1531

see above, used older source, translation perhaps knows better, changed, --GA

Although I don't have a source, it stands to reason that if the text was composed in 1530 or 1531, the author must have been Luther's friend, Johannes Agricola (1494-1566), not Bach's student, Johann Friedrich Agricola (1720-1774). So I updated the links accordingly. –Macam14 (talk) 18:11, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

• "Albert Schweitzer criticized the libretto as "bland, lesson-like"" - is there a specific reason why his opinion is important here?

Two people are cited who say so, Schweitzer is the well-known one. - The topic comes up in the very last para --GA

Might be worth putting all the opinions of the cantana together in the "Reception" section. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:12, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

It's an idea, but then we would go into the music section without knowing that Bach had to deal with a difficult text, so appreciate less how he dealt with it. ---GA

• "Bach first performed the cantata on 14 July 1715." - that date is not in the source given

oh dear, by my typo you landed 100 pages off in the source. - In case you found the right cantata anyway, it says: first the dated year 1715, then "on 14 July that year" (p. 417) --GA

Got it Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

• "Bach revived the cantata once more in 1746 or 1747." - I can't find "1746" or "1747" in the cited source.

How would you interpret "1746/47"? --GA

Interesting. When I do a search on the PDF for "1746" I get no hits, but a search for "46" spots the bit in the source conforming the dates. Well I never. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:01, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

More later... Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 15:10, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Excellent points, more later, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:14, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Scoring and structure

• Ich kann nicht gut Deutch sprechen oder leisen ... so could you clarify where the specific instrumentation is given in the source given

That source is for the original title (which is a mix of Italian and French). Sorry, when I inserted that yesterday, I failed to repeat other sources for the listing of voices and instruments. I now decided to elevate two sources to inline refs, - the Alberta one (Bischof) has the scoring for each individual movement, and the complete list at the bottom. ---GA

• Clarino is a link to a synthetic leather like material. Easily confused with the "clarino register" on a clarinet, for instance, but I think the link you want is Clarion (instrument)

good mind reading, thank you ---GA

• "The duration is given as 16 minutes" - where exactly is that in the source given?

p. 415, below the title "Barmherziges Herze ...", after the catalogue numbers ---GA

Just "Music" and "Recordings" to sweep through. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:12, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Music

• Is it usual practice to put each movement in a separate section? Some of them are quite short.

Compare BWV 165 --GA

I may add a bit but only after the next two are on their way --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:10, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

• "The countersubject is the "Spiegelung" of the theme" - "Spiegelung" may need some explanation

explained right behind it: "mirror"

I linked two more terms and explained the German, feel free to polish the wording ----GA

• "John Eliot Gardiner, who conducted the Bach Cantata Pilgrimage in 2000, notes" - "says" rather than "notes"?

But he wrote it in his dairy? ---GA

changed to that ----GA

• "It is illuminated by a soaring violin as a fifth part" - "soaring" doesn't sound particularly neutral, can this be rephrased?

I gave it quotation marks, ---GA

Okay, that's all I can find. I think I just need all the comments to be reviewed and then check up on them, and we're there. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 17:56, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Tried some, please check, - thank you for bearing with me, - it's quite fast a succession 21 24 28 June, 2 5 July, - then will ease to one a week ;) ---Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:09, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

More minor changes made - the cantata features prominently in the arb case, The Mote and the Beam, "do not judge", and the mercy therefore needed ----Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:38, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Do you know it's disrespectful to talk about arb cases on my birthday :-P Anyway, regarding the remaining issues the only outstanding one is "Most of the second paragraph [in "History and words"] is cited to a source that has the words and an English translation, and a very brief summary of the work, but nothing else. Is an inline citation missing?" Once that's addressed, we are good for a GA I think. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

When I wrote the disrespectful thing I didn't know yet that it's your birthday. The para: the bible quotes support the readings, - I used the King James Version but could also take the wording from the Dürr-Jones source, p. 415. On p. 417 it has remarks on the text, no? (and still "c. 1530" for the chorale but I don't think that will matter too much). - Thank you for doing such work on your birthday, I feel honoured! (I wrote an article with a rocket motif on mine.) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:53, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

To keep things very simple, I've put a tag on the content in question I don't think is totally verifiable. I had a look on bach-cantatas.com but I can't find something that has absolutely every fact that sentence says. I'm sure you can find one in the tenth of the speed I can, and once that's in place, we'll be done. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I found two "citation required", for the gospel text (which I thought is sourced by the bible source), - I have supplied links to the two articles, - how is that? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:32, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I've got citations for what I was looking for. I think that's it, so I'm now passing the review. Well done. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you! Rock motif on the Main page right now, - I keep singing. Thanks for the encouragement to start one for next Sunday! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:08, 30 June 2015 (UTC)