Talk:Barbara Gordon/Archive 1

Archive 1

Get INVOLVED

Blah...@_@ I've literally spent a full 2 weeks editing this article from top to bottom adding every nanobite of info I can find on Babs. (and if you don't believe me look at the history page!) I'd love to see this article become A quality/featured. Why? cause I'm crazy and I heart Barbara! if anyone has the ibsn number to any of the references on this page i'd love to add them! Bookkeeperoftheoccult 12:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Batman Begins

In Batman Begins, when Bats talks to Gordan at his house, you can see a wife feeding a baby. Is this Barbra senior and junior? Should this be mentioned?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.163.100.72 (talk • contribs).

"In the 2005 movie, Batman Begins, Barbara Gordon was cast as Ilyssa Fradn, although she has no screentime." My guess is they're going with 'Uncle Jim' and 'Niece Barbara' so that would be Gordon's first wife and child, who die. I think. Have to go dig up some comics now... -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 04:28, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Gordon's first wife and kid are dead. If I recall, they are both living in Chicago but have not been shown in many years. As for Batman Begins, that credit is most likely referring to Gordon's wife who was also named Barbara. Hence there being no screentime for what the writer was expecting to be a preteen. -- Rajah1 (talk|contribs) 03:39, June 30 2006

They're dead in the comics. But. Looking up Ilyssa Fradin I think she's not pre-teen babs, you're right there. Still, the name was for barbara and we should keep it in for now. She is named Barbara Gordon either way ;) -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 13:22, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Where is it established that they're dead? Heh, now I really feel like a Wikipedian, asking for a reference. ;) -- Rajah1 (talk|contribs) 04:27, July 1 2006

Pardon me, divorced. I messed up which wife was which. -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 19:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

origin

"Barbara proved to be the most popular Batgirl with the readers as well, as they made requests for her to appear in other titles"

how the hell is anybody supposed to understand amything by that? uptil that sentence no mention has been made of other people being batgirl, so won't it be just a little confusing when she turns out to be "the most popular Batgirl" ? --TommyStardust 19:32, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I just reworded it. How's that? -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 23:19, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

good job... but i don't understand the line "with the readers as well"... with who else can she be popular with? --TommyStardust 10:56, 21 July 2006 (UTC) The media, writers, DC CEO people, etc. Just because fans love something doesn't always mean we get what we want ;) -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 11:51, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Isn't better to say she's the most popular Batgirl and has become iconic through her connection to Batnan, similar to Robin. They used her over Cassandra Cain in the failed BOP, she's the basis for "Barbara Wilson" and they've never paralyzed her in any permanent, popular medium. Heck, as I said early, they made excuses to have put on a redesogned suit and act as Batgirl over anyone else. Ask anyone one the street who Batgirl is. If they have any idea what you're talking about, they'll prpbably say "Barbara...something". Ahem. Forgive me if this seemed ranty or POV, but this just seems blatently obvious. Mainwhile, Barbara has definitely been replaced in comics, I admit. In fact, it might just come full circle if the Batwoman stays in place and Bette takes over after Cassandra. Anyway, point is, I agree that it's kind of add to say "most popular with readers", despite being only the sercond out of at least four Batgirls and one amongst a long list of "Bat-inspired females" too numerous to count. ACS (Wikipedian); Talk to the Ace. See what I've edited. 16:50, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

To say that she is the most popular batgirl itself is confusing as no mention of other batgirls has been made. Under Oracle, it says main article:the killing joke. why? although babs was paralysd in it, oracle isnt born until much later... im removing the main article and linking the killing joke. TommyStardust 17:24, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Quote as it stands right now:

Barbara proved to be more popular than her predecessor (Bat-Girl) with the readers as well, as they made requests for her to appear in other titles.

In the context of that particular section, we're talking about Batgirl in history. The fact that Babs successfully replaced Bette lends creedence to the statement that she is more popular than Bette. Regardless, it's ahead of the game to discuss her as 'most popular Batgirl evah!' in her origin section. I think it makes sense as it mentions her predecessor. -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 17:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Good point and well argued. Touché, Miss I. ACS (Wikipedian); Talk to the Ace. See what I've edited.

Infobox

Wouldn't it be better if we list her affiliations one below the other, instead of using commas? Also, "known relatives" doesn't show... Why? TommyStardust 17:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

It got turned off in the infobox since it was just to weird for so many characters with so many historical revisions to family etc. -- Ipstenu (talk|contribs) 17:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup

what more needs to be done to remove the message? TommyStardust 07:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I've been doing major and minor edits to this page over the past week. notable changes include:

• Her creation was a collaboration between the editors of DC comics and the producers of the Batman television series of the early sixties. In the same year actress Yvonne Craig debuted in the show's third season as Batgirl, Barbara Gordon made her first comic book appearance in The Million Dollar Debut of Batgirl.

Barbara Gordon's persona as Batgirl has become one of DC Comic's most recognizable female superhero icons. To date, Gordon's version of Batgirl has been adapted into all media relating to the Batman franchise including merchandise, television, animation and feature film. During the late sixties, the character was also used to advocate for women's rights.

The modern incarnation of the character as Oracle made her first on screen appearance in the short-lived television series Birds of Prey, loosely based of the comics of the same name. Much like Batgirl, Barbara Gordon's persona as Oracle continues to gain acclaim as a pioneer; now as a new cultural icon for those living with disabilities. Uninhibited by her paralysis, the character has proven herself to be a formidable fighter through the use of escrima and has rivaled the intellectual genius of Batman.

• The Modern Age of Comics had significant changes to the comic book industry. Characters became much darker and psychologically complex, abandoning the light-hearted themes of three previous ages.

• Oracle founds the Birds of Prey, a team of female heroes, whom she employs as agents. The first mission to which she assigns Power Girl goes awry and several deaths result from it. At that time, Power Girl's power's and abilities would fluctuate at randon, leaving her uneasy about taking on high-risk assignments. Power Girl accuses Oracle of having poor leadership skills and severs her connection to her. Regardless of their animosity, she has agreed to help Oracle on occasion. However, when Oracle invites Power Girl to rejoin the team after the events of Infinite Crisis, she replies that she'll do so "when Hell freezes over."

• Oracle later joins forces with superheroine Black Canary. The two find a kindred spirit in one another, both having lost their original abilities while fighting crime, yet managing to overcome their handicaps. In Birds of Prey #29, Barbara and Dinah meet in person and establish a long-term friendship. The two form the nucleus of the Birds of Prey organization. While Oracle serves as the head of operations, Black Canary become her full-time employee and field agent.

• During Gail Simone's run on Birds of Prey The Huntress began to make guest appearances. She meets Barbara in person after rescuing her from a life threatening situation in issue #65. While Oracle and Huntress share a long history of animosity with one another, Black Canary convinces Oracle to employ her as a full-time agent. Eventually, Lady Blackhawk also becomes a full-time Bird of Prey. Although the personnel on Oracle's team grows and changes, Huntress and Lady Blackhawk remain core agents. Bookkeeperoftheoccult 09:23, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Harlequin

Duela Dent's Harvey Dent's wife. She doesn't become harlequinn, Dr. Harleen Quinzel does. Doesn't she? Axium 22:22, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Duela Dent was Harvey's daughter in the pre-crisis comics, and yes, she became Harlequin. Post Crisis gets a little complicated... see the articles linked. Dr. Harleen Quinzel became Harley Quinn. CatherS 06:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

DC reversed its stand on Duela Dent's parentage later on, before the Crisis, when they were unable to reconcile her age with Harvey's. So her true background is still a mystery.Mister Fax 19:42, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Batman relationship?

I thought Barbara was a teenager. Isn't Bruce at this time, like, in his early 30's? It just seems...I donnno, is Barbara is college? I saw her dating Nightwing in that one episode. 65.103.61.154 14:44, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

You're right he's a bit old for her. I think that theres at least a 10 year age gap. Considering the episode where Bruce adopted Dick and Bruce was finished college and training and already Batman, he is at least 25 and Dick is about 11. Meaning a 14 year age difference between he and Dick, Dick is the same age as Barbara since they go to college together. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.227.146.138 (talk)

Age is mutable in the DCU, though. By the time Babs is in her 30s, Bruce is only 44, and that's not really too terrible. -- Ipstenu (talk • contribs) 18:49, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Return of the Joker

Where in the Return of the Joker does it say that Barbara and Bruce were in a relationship? I watched both versions and couldn't find anything.

It was never stated in BB:ROTJ that there were in a relationship, it WAS stated in an episode in the series when Terry has a cup of coffee with Babs...I forget which episode.Bookkeeperoftheoccult 03:00, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

It was on the "Mystery of the Batwoman" film that there is an allusion to Barbara and Bruce being romantically involved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.142.232.104 (talk) 14:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

This is correct, however, Terry and Barbara actually discuss it in the Batman Beyond series, when she attempts to get to know Terry better.Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 23:27, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Image issues...

Something I've notice that's becoming a problem: over use of fair-use images. The overall guide line is to try an keep the number of fair-use images to a minimum in articles. Right now the article has 18, a chunk of which are either redundant or of minimal, if any, notability.

I'm going to cull out some of what seem the worse offenders and notate why her as well as in the edit summaries. - J Greb 23:00, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

• Image:Oraclepowergirl.jpg - The image is more useful in support of a section in the Power Girl article than here. It's also redundant as it's the 3 full cover image from the Birds of Prey titles for purposes of "And team members are/were..." - J Greb 23:09, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
• Image:Batman family09.jpg - Since there are 2 other images from comics of the character in her Batgirl costume, this image is redundant, making it decoration. Also, since it was placed next to a paragraph about a specific series, the use of the image could be considered capricious since not all series that used the character and are of the same level of overall notability receive the same treatment. - J Greb 23:20, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
• Image:Supergirl batgirl ef.jpg - 2 images showing the Elseworld variation on the theme can be argued as reasonable. Any more and it starts taking on the appearance of a gallery, which cannot be made up of non-free images. - J Greb 23:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Additional observations:

• Image:Batgirlbykevinnowlan.jpg and Image:Milliondollardebut.jpg - By all rights, the Detective cover should be up under the ToC with the opening paragraph laying out the character's creation and debut. This does require a rework of the lead into a lead as per WP:LEAD, giving a condensed version of the article, and the creation of the opening paragraph(s). The Nowlan art could be moved to the top of the fictional character history where it would act as visual support for the character during that time. It really doesn't belong in a section where the text is talking about the character after the character had to give up the Batgirl ID.
• Image:Blackcanaryoracle.jpg, Image:Birdsofpreyoflikemindstpb.jpg, and Image:OracleBrainiacVirus.jpg - The "virus" image is reasonable to use in conjunction to laying out what was played up as a major plot point running up to the "One Year Later" event. The other two though... One is reasonable to be used with the BoP section of the FCB, but neither really works with the Oracle section of the PH. In all honesty, the reveal of Barbara as Oracle from Suicide Squad would make more sense there. Additionally, the BoP section should be vetted. If it's going to deal heavily with the team dynamics, then it should be in the BoP article with a condensed version focusing on Barbara here.

- J Greb 00:22, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I've made a number of changes to the article to comply with these suggestions. Bookkeeperoftheoccult 06:13, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll be reviewing Barbara Gordon

G'day people! i'll be your article reviewer, in a couple of hours (maybe tommorrow) i'll have finished. :) -Yamanbaiia 16:35, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou SO much! :) Bookkeeperoftheoccult 22:56, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

This article definitely covers EVERY aspect of "Barbara Gordon, good work!. Now the problems:

1. The first problem i see is that the "Publication History" section makes too many references to things that should be in the "Fictional character history" section. If each of this things is mentioned because it somehow affected sales or publication of the comic books then it should be clarified, or moved to the "FCH" section. What should not be in "PH": she was a member of the House of Representatives, her meeting with supergirl, her date with superman, her relationship with Robin, everything related to Jason Bard, the whole "Dick Grayons served as Barbara' sumer intern" paragraph, etc. "Secret Origins (1987)" and "Batgirl: Year One 2003" do not make one comment about publishers or public reaction, it's only plot, therefore it doesn't belong here.
   (A good example as to how this section should looks: Silver Surfer).
2. "They form a friendship and team up twice more in Batman Family, and again alongside the Freedom Fighters " does this mean they teamed up three times total? or twice in the Batman family, one of them with the Freedom Fighters? this phrase should be rephrased to whichever way.
3. There are many, many references missing. "Silver Age" and "Bronze Age" do not have one reference, this should be fixed. Once all the things that should be here but are in "PH" are moved, the references will move as well, so maybe this section will be OK.
4. In the "Batman: Gotham Knights" paragraph the reader should be reminded Gordon's relation to Barbara and the entire paragraph could be summerise into one good phrase.
5. In the next paragraph reader should be reminded who Dick is. (I know it's Robin, but last mention of this was in the "PH" section. Another example of why some elements from "up there" should be moved down.
6. In "Modern Age" there's no need to remind reader who wrote "Batman: The killing joke", this should be in "PH".
7. I noticed a lot of repetition. An example is "The Joker also photographs Barbara, taking pride in his aggravated assault. The Joker selects Barbara because she is Gordon's daughter; he still does not know that Barbara Gordon had been Batgirl." Why not make this just one phrase? Also, try not to repeat "Barbara" or "Batgirl" in subsequent phrases. I might have resolved this, but watch out anyway.
8. Another "Modern Age" problem is that there are only two references in the whole section, and very strong statements are being made here, she became more skilled than she was as Batgirl? you need a ref for this, if not its original research.
9. There's not one reference in "Powers and Abilities".
10. The "Television" and "Animated" sections are lists and there's no need to (WP:MOS). (A good example as to how this section should looks: Lex Luthor).
11. Could it be possible to find some more online references?

This are all minor issues, and they should be solved within 7 days, i will then take another look and pass or fail "Barbara Gordon". Yamanbaiia 22:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Bookkeeperoftheoccult requested for me to give another look. OK. I found some more minor problems.

• The "Elseworld" section needs a small introduction, just one phrase explaining what Elseworld is and then saying that BG has made appearences in some collections, such as...
• All the "episodes" references need to have the title in ""
• "Video games" section should be written in prose, there's no need for this to be a list (WP:EMBED).
• Ref 81 links to an image of Alicia Silverstone, i'm asuming good faith, please fix this.
• Ref 87 needs to be wikified so as to know what this link is.

When you adress this i'll take another look. Don't worry, i was pretty thorough this time so i'll probably won't find any more minors. :DYamanbaiia 13:55, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Bookkeeperoftheoccult has corrected everything and informed me earlier about this on my talk page. I've passed the article. Congratulations and good work!Yamanbaiia 23:37, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

FA To Do List

In order to push this article to Featured status, please point out any criteria needed and I'll devote my time to correcting any current problems. Bookkeeperoftheoccult 01:19, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

De-listing as a GA

As per my peer-review at Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics/Peer review/Barbara Gordon I have asked that this article be de-listed as a GA at WP:GAR. Phil Sandifer 14:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks like this will lose its GA status and it would seem like the best approach would be a heavy re-write - either in situ or in someone's sandbox. Any takers for an editor to go on point on this and help get this back on track? If done right it should be possible to get this into good shape for the push to FA. (Emperor 19:29, 10 November 2007 (UTC))

Going through it quickly it strikes me that at 70+kb it is worth splitting something off - the obvious candidate is turning the other media section into another article, closely followed by alternate versions, as that way it'll slim the article down and take out parts that aren't about the specific character. That should help keep things more focused and allow us to put more focus on her real world impact (as one of the big complaints is that it is too in-universe) and in particular it'd be worth looking at the reception of some of the changes in the character and the character themselves. (Emperor 19:44, 10 November 2007 (UTC))

I actually considered moving "adaptations into other media/alternate versions" to a separate page a LONG time ago, but i thought it wasn't necessary at the time. I've been swamped with school work lately but I think i can pull that much off pretty quickly. Bookkeeperoftheoccult 08:38, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I've created a new article for Media adaptations of Barbara Gordon. Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 10:06, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I've created a new article for Alternate versions of Barbara Gordon. Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 19:01, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Added quotes from John Ostrander stating Oracle is both a role model and icon for those living with disabilities. Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 22:14, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Numerous plot summaries have been removed from the article in order to condense it.Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 06:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I've added the Batgirl vs Oracle section in the publication history to display the controversy over restoring Barbara Gordon's mobility. Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 09:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

After a major overhaul of the article I've asked that it either keep its GA status or be renominated at WP:GAR. Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 09:49, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:GAR resulted in non-consensus. Barbara Gordon remains GA-Class.Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 08:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Main Image: Bargirl or Oracle?

according to the peer review by User:Phil Sandifer:

The first image should be replaced with something more classic - preferably showing her in her wheelchair. Alternatively, as the article makes the case that her portrayal as Batgirl is what she's most known for, go with a Batgirl image - it is preferable to have the iconic versions of characters over the current ones.

As I stated in WP:GAR I disagree with this. In my personal opinion I prefer Batgirl over Oracle, however, from an objective point of view I think its more logical to have the main image represent the character in her current persona, despite the fact that Batgirl is the iconic version of the character.

I vote to keep Image:Birds58.jpg as the main image, as it is currently the clearest artwork of BG as Oracle that does not include other characters (such as promotional art for BoP which usually include Oracle along side Black Canary, Huntress and other characters).

If the consensus is to use Batgirl as the articles main image, then I propose using Image:Batgirlbykevinnowlan.jpg and/or replacing that image with a silver age rendering of Batgirl. Please comment. Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 15:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't like the "I've fallen and I can't get up! (But I can still whip your ass)" Babs pic that's there now; too women in refrigerators for me. Phil didn't say it should be a Batgirl pic, I think he just wanted one of Oracle where she's off the floor. As far as "iconic," well, she's been Oracle almost as long as she's was Batgirl (and had more appearances I bet), so at this point I'd say she's more known for having been Batgirl, past tense, than being Batgirl. For the youngest generation, Cassandra is probably the iconic Batgirl. So keep an Oracle pic, but let her finally get off that dirty floor. Pairadox (talk) 01:59, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Barbara is the Iconic Batgirl in terms of world view. Casandra has gained popularity but she isn't an iconic character. As far as the Oracle pic: As I pointed out, this is the only clear image of Oracle which does not include images of other characters. Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 02:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

BTW I agree I'd like a better pic of Oracle, but I still havent found a good image of her that doesn't include 2 or more characters Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 02:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, the two of us have reached consensus on Oracle :) As long as Babs is the prominent character I wouldn't have a problem with background figures. Pic standards have slipped in so many other articles (usually because of obstinate first cover enthusiasts) that I think a little leeway here is acceptable. Pairadox (talk) 03:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Booster Gold

should it be mention how he try to go back in time and stop Joker from shooting Batgirl and fail —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.88.36 (talk) 04:40, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I've been meaning to add that. I'll get to it soon.Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 10:27, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

It's just one story. He doesn't succeed. It's trivia that adds nothing to anyone's understanding of the character BG. Leave it out. Doczilla (talk) 20:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Recent edits

I deleted the various references to feminist theory (i.e. the "Women in Refrigerators" bit and the unsourced assertion that the early characterization was misogynist) because they seemed to have little to do with the subject; they seemed rather an attempt to push a subjective point of view. Treybien 16:10 17 January 2008 (UTC)

The section on women in Refrigerators should not have been removed. The Killing Joke is almost always used as an example of WiR. Asserting a fact isn't the same as pushing POV. Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 04:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I brought this up during the FAC. I don't think it should be given so much emphasis in the article. WesleyDodds (talk) 08:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. John Ostrander, Kim Yale, Gale Simone and several other commentator have commented on how they were displeased with the treatment of the character in the book. If it weren't sourced I could understand removing it, however, the arguments are well documented and I don't believe it creates any undue weight considering the sources themselves. WiR (although the term was coined by Simone much later) is basically what motivated the recreation of Barbara Gordon as Oracle, otherwise the character may not have continued to be in continuity today. A great deal of commentators also consider The Killing Joke to be one of the greatest contributions to the Batman mythology, however, those reviews deal with the graphic novel as a whole, and not specifically Barbara Gordon.Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 09:12, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for including statements from authors who have worked on the character. However, I don't feel certain commentary is relevant or notable enough for this article. You and I are familiar with the Women in Refrigerators phenomenon, but how notable is it at large? In my experience it's been mainly blog fodder for amateur writers. Is it notable enough to discuss in the Barbara Gordon article? WesleyDodds (talk) 04:25, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, yes it is. Just because the general public may be unaware of a certain topic, doesn't mean it is automatically censored in any given article, in addition to the fact that this isn't an trivial aspect concerning Barbara Gordon, its the fundamental turning point in the character's publication history. Some have argued that the character's portrayal in the book is perfectly legitimate, but that doesn't negate the fact that there is an actual argument surrounding the subject matter. Plus, WiR was conceived by Gail Simone, an actual comic writer and the subject has actually been alluded to within story arcs in various comic books. I'd even go as far to say any female comic book character who has been considered a victim of WiR should have it mentioned in their publication history.Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 07:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

"I'd even go as far to say any female comic book character who has been considered a victim of WiR should have it mentioned in their publication history." No, not really, unless there is reputable secondary analysis of the character as such. Hell, how much reliable critical commentary is there on Women in Refrigerators in general? I really don't think it's all that importance to the character of Barbara Gordon as a whole, at least enough to warrant coverage in this article. Yes, I'm sure there is argument about various aspects of how the character has been treated, but then again, there are people who argue that Batman is written to be a total asshole. Is that notable enough to warrant mention in the character's article? No. WesleyDodds (talk) 10:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Even though it felt as if i was stabbing myself in the heart, I've removed the reference to WiR per WP:WEIGHT and consensus. The Bookkeeper (of the Occult) 10:30, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Archive 1