Talk:Banyuls AOC

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Title

Banyuls redirects here. I never understand why simpler, more straightforward titles redirect to more complicated titles. If "Banyuls"—as the redirect implies and I'm inclined to agree—most commonly refers to the wine, why do we need to add "AOC" to the title? Is the wine more commonly called that? I don't think so. Srnec (talk) 03:15, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Eventually the Banyuls redirect should become it own article discussing the cuisine and perhaps tourism of the region (It is known for much more than just wine--I highly recommend the chocolates if you ever get an opportunity to try). Since the vast majority of French AOC are named after a region, it makes sense to have consistency for the wine articles across the board with an AOC title. While not every AOC has a separate article on the region right now, there will likely be one in the future and it is silly to do a page move now only to undo it later. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 03:20, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I think it would seem a little presumptuous to put an appellation article in primary topic seat, although the relevant place names are the fuller-titled Banyuls-sur-Mer and Banyuls-dels-Aspres, it does smack a little of those or disambiguation.. MURGH ^disc. 03:27, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I've heard rumours about those chocolates, but I've yet to visit the south of France. Perhaps I need some clarification: the term "Banyuls" is used to refer to a region that is not a wine region? I was under the impression that besides the two vilages bearing "Banyuls" in their names, there was only the wine appellation/region/style. The French Wiki's Banyuls is a dab page that does not contradict me. Srnec (talk) 03:35, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Region is perhaps to exaggerate, there are two French communes called Banyuls, in which case they tend to suffix some additional description to be able to tell them apart. One of these communes has lent its name to the wine. Tomas e (talk) 23:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I knew all that already. My question is this: if the wine is usually called just Banyuls, and the villages are better known by their specific names, and there is no other thing competing to be called Banyuls, why do we call this article Banyuls AOC? Srnec (talk) 05:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It is hard to talk about consistency when wine article naming is currently all over the place. Priorities up to this point have been more on improving content rather than fixating on minor details like article naming convention. However, consistency is a desired outcome and worthwhile goal to move towards. The majority of French AOCs overlap with a region that is certainly notable enough to merit their own article. Some of these articles haven't been written yet but we have sizable pool of examples where there are already two distinct articles created to know that this is going to be par for the course for French wine articles. Therefore it would be ideal to maintain a consistent standard across all French AOC articles and the simple [[Region AOC]] accomplishes that. In cases (such as Banyuls) where there is currently no regional article taking the place of the redirect, then leaving the redirect in place is just fine. There is no ill or inconvenience to the reader or the editor in maintaining a consistent standard across all AOC articles--in fact, consistency is a benefit. Is there a tangible reason or benefit to disregarding consistency? Agne^Cheese/^Wine 06:10, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Redundancy. Should we move Pouilly-Fumé and Pouilly-Fuissé to more complex titles just for consistency? I think we should be as consistent as possible, but I support using AOC only as a disambiguator when necessary. I'm still not sure there is a Banyuls region other than the wine region. Besides, we have Regional Bordeaux AOCs, wisely indicating that not every legal appellation in France gets an article of its own. (That would be hairsplitting.) Srnec (talk) 06:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

So inconsistency is a cure for redundancy? It is a good thing the laws of mathematics and physics are not worried about "redundancy". Though that apple falling downwards does get boring from time to time. :) I would contend that there is tangibly more value and benefit to the both the reader and the editor in having a consistent standard across the board than any perceived ill of redundancy. Redundancy will never cause someone to search for and link to the wrong article, inconsistency often does. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 06:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Quantum mechanics and the theory of relativity are inconsistent. Ockham's razor, so important in scientific decision-making, forbids redundancy. A consistent standard across the board certainly has its benefits, but if, as I contend, Banyuls usually refers to the wine, then if any article but this one is at that title we will probably have linking problems. Of course, redirects would solve that issue and permit consistency (like we have now), but that goes both ways, for redirects also permit the consistent would-be title to direct you to the familiar title. Srnec (talk) 02:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

(unident) Oh and to illustrate that the association between Banyuls the wine, Banyuls the AOC and Banyuls the area is not so cut and dry consider the case of Collioure and Banyuls vinegar. In wine and culinary circles, the shorthand "Banyuls" refers to the wine and cuisine not only of the two communes with Banyuls in the name but also to nearby Collioure which makes a Collioure AOC designated vin doux naturel that can be labeled both both Collioure and Banyuls. However any unfortified wine made in Banyuls-sur-Mer and Banyuls-dels-Aspres are not entitled to the Collioure AOC. However, Banyuls wine vinegar can be made from both AOC and non AOC wine in both Collioure and the two Banyuls commune. These are things that would be worthwhile to expand on in an article titled Banyuls but not necessarily one titled Banyuls AOC--especially when you get into the history of the region's vinegar (which curiously wasn't always made from grape wine). Sure we could have a bunch pf one to two paragraph stubs on Banyuls vinegar, Banyuls chocolate, Banyuls cuisine, Collioure AOC, Banyuls Grand Cru AOC, Banyuls Rancio AOC, Banyuls Grand Crus Rancio AOC, etc. But really all we would need is two articles-Banyuls AOC for the fortified wine and Banyuls to talk about he greater scope beyond the fortified wine including merging the stub level content of Collioure AOC. Someday, when there is not such a pressing need to focus on improving the content of our TOP & High Level importance articles, maybe the Wine Project will be able to get around to fully developing those articles. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 06:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Can you give me a source (just one is fine) that speaks of Banyuls as a "cultural" area? That would be all I'd need to agree with you completely. And if we only need two articles, should Banyuls Grand Cru AOC be merged into this one? Or do you think we really need more than two articles? Srnec (talk) 02:12, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Obviously a stupid question... http://www.banyuls.com/. The first one, that is. Srnec (talk) 02:14, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that merging this with Banyuls Grand Cru AOC is a good idea. MURGH ^disc. 02:41, 29 January 2009 (UTC)