Talk:Bankruptcy/Archive 1

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NPOV of United Kingdom

It remains to be seen whether the leash has been loosened too far and whether the legislation will need reviewing if the system becomes too overheated with debt-dumping debtors seems to be a very biased critique of the legal framework. I am proposing a rework of this situation as it also presents the situation in the UK as uniform - when it is not. Scotland has a seperate legal framework. Davidkinnen 13:58, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Northern Ireland also has a seperate legal framework - Cuddlyopedia 13:49 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Special cases

In the UK, have they made the Student loans company invulnerable to bankrupcy law (i.e. they, and nobody else, can demand full payment from a bankrupt person)? Ojw 18:27, 22 September 2005 (UTC)

Not quite correct. A bankrupt is not released from his/her debt to the student loans company on discharge. They are also not released from fines, and from debts due in respect of damages for personal injury. - Cuddlyopedia 13:49 21 October 2005 (UTC)

That was exactly what I said, wasn't it? Ojw 18:50, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

It was the 'and nobody else' that wasn't correct - Cuddlyopedia 13:32, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Request

I looked up this entry in hopes of answering a question, and I thought I'd suggest that someone in the know add some info: I've heard of "Chapter 11" bankruptcy, and also of "Chapter 7." Where does this come from? There are, I assume, other chapters?

These refer to chapters of the relevant law in the United States Code. You can see the article Bankruptcy in the United States for more information. If that article doesn't explain it clearly, let me know and I'll try to improve it. Paul 03:58, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Receivership

I notice that the topic 'Receivership' redirects directly to this page. I do not believe that is a correct redirection, since Receivership does not only apply to bankruptcy. For example, a person who owns a business that needs to be liquidated in order to satisfy a court judgement will find his business sent into receivership. Furthermore, the article doesn't refer to receivership at all. I believe there should be a new distinct topic for receivership that discusses its role in bankruptcies and also other proceedings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Slaggg (talk • contribs) 5 April 2006 05:36 (UTC).

It probably should be a new topic; please be bold, it's a great idea! You would have to click on the "Redirected from Receivership" link after finding yourself on Bankruptcy so as to bypass the redirection for editing the unredirected page. Drop me a line on my talk page if you'd like another pair of hands on it. --Flawiki 21:34, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

regarding the {{globalize}} -- Breaking jurisdiction-specific stuff out?

Subsequent to the creation of the Bankruptcy in the United States article and the factoring of stuff from here into there, a number of editors have contributed some excellent material back into this article. Which is not a problem except insofar as we're back where we were when the US-specific bits were broken out.

By {{globalize}} maint. tagging and writing here I wanted to gently broach the idea to you all to see what thoughts you might have on how to help reduce the regional bias in this article? I was thinking perhaps excising all of the region-specific material and merging into the existing Bankruptcy in Canada, Bankruptcy in the United Kingdom, and Bankruptcy in the United States articles, leaving behind only the common law common history and most general of concepts while strongly emphasizing with great bold pointers into the region articles for jurisdictional-specific stuff. Please comment! --Flawiki 00:54, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Relavent Information

I recently posted an article in the bankruptcy section called "Rebuilding Credit". I have worked closely with a bankruptcy attorney and know that this is a common concern for many people. I thought that this article would be useful, and relavent for this section of the site. I also placed a link to a website that I myself have gotten a lot of useful information from. Half an hour after I posted the article, it was completely deleted. I understand the concerns with my having placed a link to a website, but was there a need to delete the entire article? I was only trying to provide more detailed information from what I knew. —The preceding comment is by E.N.C. (talk • contribs) 19:47 25 May 2006: Please sign your posts!

Why not create a new article called "Rebuilding Credit?" I'm certain some of the information in the section is useful, but it seems to be geo limited...definitely doesn't work in the US for about half of it. Some of it is quite good through. In that it doesn't do what it says however I've rmd it, inserting the material here for discussion, and would encourage you to create a new article on Rebuilding Credit in (whatever_country_this_is_for). As far as the web site that was inserted that was probably removed as linkspam (see WP:EL) --Flawiki 21:27, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

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Material removed on 25 May @ 2123:

Rebuilding Credit

It is possible for debtors in Canada and America to rebuild credit following the completion of their bankruptcy, if they follow several simple steps.

1. Complete the bankruptcy as soon as possible. If the debtor has never filed for bankruptcy in the past, the debtor is eligible for a discharge through the bankruptcy process. If the debtor has filed before certain timing restrictions may apply to the current filing. In order to receive a discharge and exit the bankruptcy process, the debtor must complete all of the duties imposed by the process such as providing the trustee with accurate information, attending the meeting of creditors, obtaining credit counseling before filing and before the entry of the discharge, cooperating with the US Trustees office, and if the debtors is in a Chapter 13 repayment plan, making all necessary payments. The sooner the bankruptcy is completed, the sooner it will be eliminated from the credit reporting agencies' reports.

2. Begin saving money. It is a well known fact that banks loan money to those who do not need money, not to those who desperately require it. You will have to prove that you can handle money if you want to borrow again, and the best way of doing that is to show that you have some savings. Try putting a certain amount of money in a savings account each month. This will allow you to build up a security deposit to be used for future borrowing.

3. Acquire a copy of the credit report. You should contact a credit bureau in your area and get a copy of your credit report. It should then be reviewed for accuracy. If any mistakes are found, such as debts appearing that were included in the bankruptcy, the credit bureau should be informed right away.

4. Get a secured Credit Card. One of the best ways to rebuild credit is with a secured credit card. You can use your savings on one credit card, to get a credit card with a similar credit limit. It will show up on the credit report as a normal credit card, and you can now have a credit card for use when you need it.

5. Start an RRSP. Use your additional savings to put money in an RRSP with a bank or investment advisor. If you contribute $1,000 to an RRSP, the bank will likely lend you another $1,000 to invest in your RRSP. This $2,000 will generate a tax refund at tax time that will almost be enough to pay off your loan. Your credit report will then show a paid off loan, and that looks great on your credit report! You’ll also have $2,000 invested in the RRSP.

6. Continue Saving. Your savings can now be used for down payment on a car or possibly even a house.

Rebuilding credit may take a few years, but by saving money you will eventually have the ability to borrow again.

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Needs references and citations. Looks like original research without them. --ElKevbo 21:58, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

UK companies can't use Bankruptcy

Given the recent edits by Cuddlyopedia, stating that UK companies can go into administration but not bankruptcy, the caption I added for the illustration is presumably technically incorrect. -- Solipsist 12:19, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

Yes. You also had the wrong company. I've corrected it, hopefully (I'm new) in an acceptable manner. I intend to go through all the insolvency related articles so far as they appertain to the UK, once I have access to legal resources at work. - Cuddlyopedia 13:49 21 October 2005.

Not strictly true. Check out the multimedia links regarding the matter.

• UK Bankruptcy Multimedia Video Resorce

• In the UK, only individuals can go into bankruptcy. An insolvent company, if it does not go into administration (which is a rehabilition regime, the equivalent of the US Chapter 11) would go into insolvent liquidation. Also not to be confused with the foregoing is administrative receivership, which is a creditor controlled process. Legis 13:02, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Foreclosure vs. Liquidation

Hi - I was wondering what the main differences are between foreclosure and liquidation, which are two insolvency procedures (among others). Can someone explain the main differences and advantages of each? I am having trouble finding a cogent and succint explanation.

Foreclosure is a legal process by which a bank/secured creditor can realise on the real property pledged to it by a debtor when there has been a default on the mortgage over the property; you do not need to be insolvent for a foreclosure to occur. Liquidation is an insolvency process (in some countries) whereby the assets of a debtor are redistributed. Liquidation can also refer to a sale of assets (generally discounted) outside of insolvency. This is not legal advice, and any further discussion depends on the specifics (and probably doesn't belong here anyway!) Mochajava97 20:27, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup

The detailed provisions on each country's particular laws should be removed from this overview article, and replaced with a link to the specific country's section. Right now there's too much overlap and clutter, not to mention factually dubious information. It would be much easier to maintain if it was in one location.LH 06:26, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

A simple definition

I think that his article would benefit from the addition of this simple definition of bankcruptcy at the beginning as taken from the BBC website:

   "In most countries there are two tests for bankruptcy: 
      •A Company that cannot pay its debts because there is not enough money in the bank. 
      •A company with liabilities (or what it owes) that exceed its assets 
      (such as property,inventory or what it is owed)."

This would be advantageous for people just looking for a quick reference. It will also help to point out that there are subtle distinctions that exist with regards to the maening of the term: "bankruptcy" as bankcruptcy law is different in different countries e.t.c. --BusinessMan1 21:54, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear readers: I can speak only about the United States. The two definitions provided by user BusinessMan1 are, in the United States, essentially the two definitions for insolvency.

The first definition -- roughly the inability to pay one's debts as they become due -- is sometimes called equitable insolvency or "cash flow" insolvency in the U.S.

The second definition for "insolvent" -- roughly a financial position such that the amount of debts exceeds the value of assets, as adjusted for certain transfers -- is statutory insolvency, sometimes called "balance sheet" insolvency. (Note: Although the insolvency test for assets is usually based on fair market value of assets, most balance sheets under U.S. accounting standards value assets based on historical cost rather than at fair market value). Note: The actual statutory definition is longer and more complicated than the summarized version I provided, and is found at 11 U.S.C. § 101(32).

Theoretically, a company or individual could be "equitably insolvent" but not be "statutorily insolvent," or could be statutorily insolvent and yet not be equitably insolvent.

In the U.S. at least, the term "bankruptcy" is sometimes used to refer not to the "insolvency" itself, but rather to the state of actually being in a legal proceeding called bankruptcy. Of course, the term is sometimes used just to mean "insolvent" as well.

Stay tuned, I'll check for general definitions in Black's Law Dictionary later. Yours, Famspear 22:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear readers: Black's Law Dictionary gives many definitions of "insolvency," and here are some examples: "[s]uch a relative condition of a man's assets and liabilities that the former, if all made immediately available, would not be sufficient to discharge the latter" [sounds like statutory insolvency]; or "the condition of a person who is unable to pay his debts as they fall due" [sounds like equitable insolvency]. The dictionary also notes that for purposes of the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) (in the U.S.), "a person is insolvent who either has ceased to pay his debts in the ordinary course of business or cannot pay his debts as they fall due or is insolvent within the meaning of the Federal Bankruptcy Law" (citing UCC section 1-201(23)). Black's Law Dictionary, p. 716 (5th ed. 1979). Yours, Famspear 01:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Regardless the precise definition used, bankruptcy in the U.S. does not require insolvency. It would be a mistake to mistake the definition as concomitant with insolvency.LH 22:15, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Dear fellow editors: I believe editor L33th4x0rguy (LH) is correct on that point. In the United States, there is no statutory requirement that you actually be insolvent in order to maintain your bankruptcy case. "Bankruptcy" and "insolvency," in this particular sense, are not exactly the same thing. Yours, Famspear 01:19, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Student Loans in Canada

I noticed someone removed the paragraph - which I thought provided some good information. Should the section be deleted or restored?

- Former student —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.141.118.94 (talk) 17:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC).

The whole Student loans in bankruptcy looks like it was deleted. The hearing is smaller than the entries under it. It doesn't really even seem to be about student load and rather general bankruptcy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.97.20.102 (talk) 13:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC).

Re: History of Bankruptcy

Hi, I am new to editing on wikipedia. I was wondering if an article by Voltaire could be added to the Bankruptcy's history section. The specific section is on gutenberg here: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/18569/18569-h/18569-h.htm#Bankruptcy

"The bankruptcies came to us from Italy, bancorotto, bancarotta, gambarotta e la giustizia non impicar. Every merchant had his bench (banco) in the place of exchange; and when he had conducted his business badly, declared himself fallito, and abandoned his property to his creditors with the proviso that he retain a good part of it for himself, be free and reputed a very upright man. There was nothing to be said to him, his bench was broken, banco rotto, banca rotta; he could even, in certain towns, keep all his property and baulk his creditors, provided he seated himself bare-bottomed on a stone in the presence of all the merchants. This was a mild derivation of the old Roman proverb—solvere aut in aere aut in cute, to pay either with one's money or one's skin. But this custom no longer exists; creditors have preferred their money to a bankrupt's hinder parts."

Part of the above para is already in the main article, but I am unsure on whether quotes would be allowed. Would it be part of a Trivia section?

Thank you :) Mightybeancounter 01:22, 30 May 2007 (UTC)