Talk:Balwo

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Qarshe

Qarshe did not invent Balwo, but he did build on Balwo to make a fusion genre (in which he fused Balwo and Heelo together), this source states that when Qarshe arrived to Hargeisa, Balwo was already in full swing, how did he invent it? See source here, on page 10 it states in Qarshe's own autobiography, Balwo was founded by Sinimo.The Life, Music and Literary Compositions of the Late Abdillahi Qarshe, Widely Renowned as the Founding Father of Modern Somali Music (1924-1997) Writing him in as the inventor or a pioneer of the Balwo is absolutely ridiculous. There are over 10 sources on this page that mention the founder of the Balwo Genre was Cabdi Sinimo. Aqooni (talk) 22:44, 25 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The source you removed explicitly states: "...as musicians and composers like Abdullahi Qarshe, popularly known as the father of Somali music, began to pioneer a new genre - that of balwo and heelo" [1], as such your removal is unwarranted, particularly since both Sinimo and Qarshe were included along with citations for both. Furthermore, the header already states Sinimo founded Balwo, repetition in body is thus redundant. It is clear that both artists made significant contributions and should be mentioned in discussions of this topic, per reliable sources discussing the topic. Please perform a self-revert. --Kzl55 (talk) 10:09, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Abdullahi Qarshe himself confirms that Balwo was started by Abdi Sinimo.

Mohamed Rashid Sheikh Hassan (Interviewer): "So what followed?"

Abdullahi Qarshe: "I arrived in Hargeisa and stayed with a family friend called Mahmud Abdi Arale. Abdi Sinimo’s belwo was already making an impact on the urban population. However, there were only a few musicians and they were either Arabs or Indians inspired by the new Somali genre of the belwo. There were two main characters: Ina Beenaale, an Indian, and Abdo Yusuf, a Yemeni. They played basic instruments, the most important being the violin. They invited me to join them, so I did, but I was not yet really proficient in playing. We tried to create softer lyrics than classical Somali poetry and accompany it with music. In the beginning, it was not easy, and our band consisted of a mixture of clapping, the tambourine, and drumming."

In the same interview Abdullahi Qarshe confirms that he considered Abdi Sinimo to be the "Father of Somali Music:

Mohamed Rashid Sheikh Hassan (Interviewer): "The Somali people and others regard you as the “Father of Somali Music.” Is this how you see yourself?"

Abdullahi Qarshe: "No. There was always music: for weddings, lullabies, watering animals, working, dancing (shurbo), night dancing (sacab habeenkii la tumo), exorcism (saar). All these existed, so one can only say that there were no musical instruments to accompany them. One cannot say, therefore, that I am the “Father of Somali Music.” Even modern music was in the air at the time of Abdi Sinimo, who is widely regarded as the genius who formulated and organized it into the belwo and thus took well deserved credit and honor for it. Perhaps, I am the first Somali to set Somali songs to the music of the lute (kaman)."

Source: [2]

MustafaO (talk) 00:07, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thats a straw-man. No one is discussing who founded Balwo, as the header clearly stated that Sinimo founded Balwo (thus repetition in body is entirely redundant, particularly for such a small section). The removal of Qarshe, who per reliable sources removed made significant contributions is clearly unwarranted. As such he should be reinstated. All artists who made significant contributions should be included, provided there are reliable citation supporting such inclusion. --Kzl55 (talk) 00:18, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing as you've been unresponsive on the talk page, I've restored Abdullahi Qarshe per reputable source cited as removal was unwarranted. As stated above, all artists who made significant contributions should be included, WP:RS permitting. --Kzl55 (talk) 20:30, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your edit completely contradicted your admission that Sinimo founded the Balwo genre (which is a fact per reliable sources). Your edit was: "The Balwo genre was pioneered by Somali artists Abdi Sinimo and Abdullahi Qarshe." This was removed due to the fact that reliable sources state that Qarshe himself recognised clearly that the genre was founded by Sinimo and that he was NOT the pioneer of this genre. The fact that you dismiss this clear fact constantly and vandalise this page is UNWARRANTED. The fact that you removed a sourced edit also indicates that you have little regard for sourced references. MustafaO (talk) 05:32, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The origin text states that Sinimo and Qarshe pioneered the genre, and provides adequate citations for statements. The heading states that it was founded by Sinimo, where is the contradiction? Repeating who "founded" the genre in every section is pointless. Please stop removal of sourced content. --Kzl55 (talk)

Having said that, Qarshe himself ACKNOWLEDGES that he was not a pioneer of the Balwo in any way, shape or form and attributed it completely to Abdi Sinimo which cancels out an erroneous reference especially when the person questioned, Qarshe, himself denies he had any role, pioneer or otherwise in the Balwo genre. He says: Even modern music was in the air at the time of Abdi Sinimo, who is widely regarded as the genius who formulated and organized it into the belwo and thus took well deserved credit and honor for it. Perhaps, I am the first Somali to set Somali songs to the music of the lute (kaman)." Source: [3]

Qarshe mentions he can take credit for being the first to set Somali music to the lute, but he completely denies having any association with the Balwo genre. Please desist from the unwarranted abuse of this page. MustafaO (talk) 13:54, 6 September 2019 (UTC) MustafaO (talk) 13:57, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That is your opinion, and it is based on a primary source interview. On Wikipedia, any interpretation of primary sources require support from secondary sources on Wikipedia per. You can not analyse, evaluate or interpret these statements yourself. With regards to the source you are attempting to remove, the Encyclopedia of Culture and Society clearly states: "... musicians and composers like Abdullahi Qarshe, popularly known as the father of Somali music, began to pioneer a new genre - that of balwo and heelo", clearly indicating that Qarshe made significant contributions and thus should be included. Your removal is thus unwarranted, and based on your interpretation of text, which is against Wikipedia guidelines. For the last time, perform a self-revert. Both artists, and any other artist who made significant contributions, should be included. --

There are over 10 different sources and accredited references that make no mention of Qarshe as having had any involvement whatsoever in the development and pioneering o the Balwo and follow up heelo genres, whereas it is attributed solely to Abdi Sinimo. These sources are as follows:

[4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12] and [13].

There is no academic dispute in this issue as the references speak for themselves. There is only ONE erroneous source that gives credit to Qarshe and in fact, that is due to him combining these styles with the flute. As was mentioned by Qarshe himself, he said: Even modern music was in the air at the time of Abdi Sinimo, who is widely regarded as the genius who formulated and organized it into the belwo and thus took well deserved credit and honor for it. Perhaps, I am the first Somali to set Somali songs to the music of the lute (kaman)." Source: [14]

The sources are clear, please avoid unnecessary edit warring. MustafaO (talk) 23:31, 6 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You are still confusing founding with being an artist who made significant contributions to the genre, they are clearly different issues. The sources you state are not stating that Qarshe was not a pioneer, this is your own interpretation. The Encyclopedia of Culture and Society clearly states: "... musicians and composers like Abdullahi Qarshe, popularly known as the father of Somali music, began to pioneer a new genre - that of balwo and heelo", clearly indicating that Qarshe made significant contributions and thus should be included. This article is not dedicated to a single artist that you choose, any artist that made significant contributions to the genre should be included. What you are doing is against WP ethos, I suggest you cease the edit warring. Also, please stop attempting to add clan information out-with scope of this article, there is no point in naming clan and subclan backgrounds of each artist named. --Kzl55 (talk) 10:32, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The quote that you often inserted into the page was: 'The balwo was pioneered by Sinimo and Qarshe'. This is an erroneous statement because Qarshe did not pioneer the Balwo nor the Heelo, he added the flute as he mentioned himself. Please see ([15]). I provided 10 (and counting) published references that makes no mention whatsoever to Qarshe having pioneered this genre. The sourced content and published works are for everone to see themselves. As for the clan backgrounds, there are at least 2 published and accredited sources that make a mention of his clan, his home town and information about his family. The sources are here: [16] and [17]. These sources mention information about his tribe, family, country and other useful information. It is disruptive editing, once again, for you to remove sourced and referenced work. Please desist from the edit warring. MustafaO (talk) 11:41, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Your understanding of citation on Wikipedia is flawed. On Wikipedia, there is always a preference for secondary sources, as opposed to primary sources which can be open for interpretations, please read WP:PRIMARY. That interview is a primary source citation. It is your opinion that the quote from Encyclopedia of Culture and Society is erroneous, not a single source stated that. You are just repeating an WP:IDONTLIKEIT argument, which will not fly. Wikipedia articles should show what reputable sources stated on the subject. On one hand you are trying to insert Sinimo in the Qarshe biography article based on a single source, and yet you remove Qarshe's contribution from the Balwo article despite reputable sources cited. This is not reasonable. The article should include any artist who made a contribution, provided reputable sources are cited. I suggest you stop this behaviour and perform a self-revert. --Kzl55 (talk) 11:51, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The published works that I added which is upto 10 all mention the history of these genres in a very detailed way. Your citation of Wikipedia rules is unwarranted because your one source goes against the vast majority of all reputable published sources, yet you publish it relentlessly. That is a flawed argument and contradictory. It is an WP:IDONTLIKEIT argument. You say: 'and yet you remove Qarshe's contribution from the Balwo article despite reputable sources cited.' This is incorrect. You only provided one source that contradicts and goes against all of the reputable sources that I added yet here you mention 'sources'. Stop vandalising these pages. I advise you to desist from these unwarranted edits. MustafaO (talk) 12:04, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not a single one of the ten links you've added states that "Qarshe was not a pioneer of this genre". It is your interpretation that the Encyclopedia of Culture and Society goes against the other sources, it does not, and you can not provide a single statement from these sources explicitly stating that "Qarshe was not a pioneer of this genre", not a single one. At this point you are just evading, this will not work. So unless any of your sources state explicitly that "Qarshe was not a pioneer of the Balwo genre", you need to perform a self-revert. --Kzl55 (talk) 12:15, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All of the ten links document the history of the balwo and heelo and almost all of them clearly state that Sinimo was the only pioneer of the genre and has no inclusion whatsoever of Qarshe, so it is not a matter of interpretation, it is establishing the actual majority scholarly consensus. The history is documented and verified. The source you mention goes against scholarly consensus which is why you cannot find any other accredited work that would give substantial weight to that argument. At this point it becomes a point of contention in which you want to forcefully interpolate. MustafaO (talk) 12:38, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]