Talk:Balto-Slavic languages/Serbo-Croatian controversy

Serbo-Croatian

these are the introducing paragraphs of the article Serbo-Croatian

Serbo-Croatian, Croato-Serbian, or Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian (BCS) (Srpskohrvatski, Hrvatskosrpski, or Bosanski/Hrvatski/Srpski, Cyrillic script: Cрпскохрватски, Xрватскосрпски), is a South Slavic language or diasystem. The term Serbo-Croatian is and has been used both as an umbrella term for all the dialects spoken in what is nowadays Serbia, Montenegro, Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina, and more importantly, as the official standard language of Yugoslavia from 1954 to 1990 (partially along with Slovene and Macedonian).

In its standardized form, it was based on the Neoštokavian subdialect of the Štokavian dialect system, and defined in Ekavian and Ijekavian literary variants, called "pronunciations". Unofficially, there were "Eastern" (based on the Serbian idiom) and "Western" (based on the Croatian and Bosnian idiom) literary variants, that eventuSally served as a basis for standard languages. By extension, Kajkavian and Čakavian dialects were often considered to be dialects of the Serbo-Croatian (while the Torlakian dialect was never recognized in mainstream linguistics), but they were not in official use.

With the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s, its languages followed suit and Croatian, Serbian, and Bosnian became separate standard languages (Ausbausprachen); see differences between standard Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian. Currently, there is a movement to create a Montenegrin language, separating it from Serbian. Conversely, the term "Serbo-Croatian" declined in use, first from official documents and gradually from linguistic literature.

Today, use of the term "Serbo-Croatian" is controversial due to history, politics, and the variable meanings of the word language. Linguists are divided on questions regarding whether the use of the name should be deprecated. It is still used, for lack of a more succinct alternative, to denote the "daughter" languages as a collectivity. An alternative name has emerged abroad – Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian (BCS), when referring to the same dialectal base (stylised Neoštokavian) used for all the Serbo-Croatian standard languages. In the regional dialectology, the term Central South Slavic diasystem is sometimes used as a collective term, when discussing the intensive mutual influence of Serbo-Croatian dialects in the historical period. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cantabo07 (talk • contribs) 00:34, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Your point exactly...? Be concise and to-the-point, otherwise you're likely to get ignored like that suck-puppeteering "Gotho-Baltic" supremacist loon above you. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 04:44, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the last paragrpah, that the term "Serbo-Croatian" is controversial. Therefore I question the use of that term in the article. My personal opinion - which is not important to the article itself - is that the language serbo-croatian is a constructed language like Indonesian based on old-malay and modern-standard-arabic based on classical-arabic. Now that Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore the once constructed Standard Serbo-Croatian isn't used anymore. Now we have three Standard varieties of the language, namely Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian... therefore with the break up of Yugoslavia Serbo-Croatian became a Diasystem. Further it is interesting that the Diasystem Czech-Sloavk is hardly named as a language anywhere, but Serbo-Croatian nearley everywhere. Therefore, in my opinion, the use of the term "Serbo-Croatian" should be questioned everywhere. Cantabo07 (talk) 21:09, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

P.S. I don't need instructions how to comment and how to discuss, I am no kid ;-) Further I don't care if my contribution is going to be ignored or not. Those who pay attention are welcome to discuss, those who want to ignore it, shall do so and live in peace. Cantabo07 (talk) 21:15, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "Croatian language", "Bosnian language", "Serbian language" or "Montenegrin language" - these are fabrications invented in the 1990s (and Montengerin more recently in the 2000s) by nationalists who are ashamed by the fact that their "enemies" appear to be speaking exactly the same language that they do. Indeed there is a controversy to the term Serbo-Croatian - but only in the nationalist circles. The rest of the world doesn't care. Most, if not all, modern historical linguistics publications in English language still abundantly use the term, and I assure you that their respective authors have no intention of changing their mind. Look up the works of Derksen, Kortlandt, Jasanoff, Dybo and other notable living and dead Balto-Slavists - it's Serbo-Croatian absolutely everywhere. To the extent this article is interested, the Neoštokovian dialectal basis preserving the mobile paradigms of PBSl. - it's absurd that we clone 1 column into 4 identical ones just to satisfy some nationalist egos.

It's amusing to see Croatian fundamentalist hallucinating that Serbo-Croatian language has something to do with Yugoslavia. Serbo-Croatian language was standardized more than century and a half ago, long before either Yugoslavia existed. Why do you conveniently ignore that historical fact? The practice of usage of that term has 2 centuries of continuous tradition in Slavicist circles.

The "Serbo-Croatian diasystem" aka "Central South Slavic language" exists solely in the head of the Brozović and his nationalist cronies who perpetually hallucinate about it striving to establish it as a politically more correct replacement for the term Serbo-Croatian. The notion of it was completely refuted by several linguists, most recently and most notably by Matasović 2008, see Poredbenopovijesna gramatika hrvatskoga jezika p. 64ff.

Czech-Slovak? Don't be silly, the differences between those two are 100 times more extensive than between modern-day standards of B/C/S. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:27, 22 January 2010 (UTC)

Serbian language and Croatian language are only two versions of a SAME language, nothing else.

These are illustrated in the following table:

		South Slavic					West Slavic			East Slavic
Late Proto-slavic reconstruction	Late Proto-Slavic meaning	Old Church Slavonic	Slovenian	Croatian	Serbian	Bulgarian	Macedonian	Czech	Slovak	Polish	Belarusian	Russian	Ukrainian
*gvězda	star	звѣзда	zvezda	zvijezda	ѕвезда	звезда	ѕвезда	hvězda	hviezda	gwiazda	зорка	звезда	звізда
*květъ	flower, bloom	цвѣтъ	cvet	cvijet	цвет	цвете	цвет	květ	kvet	kwiat	кветка	цвет	квітка
*tisošta	tisošta	тысѫшта	tisoč	tisuća	хиљада	хиляда	илјада	tisíc	tisíc	tysiąc	тисяча	тысяча	тисяча

Example of translation into English language ( the 'croatian' table doesn't reflect the real language spoken by croatian people, but is only a definitelly unsuccessful attempt to change some words by the weird 'rules' that are only present in the heads of the nationalists. The 'serbian' table represents the language that's really spoken and written by the vaste majority of the people in Croatia, Bosnia and Serbia.)1

English	Croatian	Serbian
English language: With regard to the general air quality in the city of Jerusalem is necessary to take urgent security measures to prevent poisoning of the population of the exhaust gases. Potential application mijera that affect the flow of personal health status and which may contribute to better overall care of the population in the area of the city center would certainly be to reduce traffic stopper on fundamental Kostanjica where intersections are located tourist islands, such as the Christian church, these disciplinary measures are proposed primarily in the holiday season such as Easter and Christmas. Officers and NCOs from the army barracks in the city should contribute to the precise use of the prescribed measures, surveillance of traffic chaos at the check point and looking through use of aviation.	Croatian language: Glede opće kvalitete zraka u gradu Jeruzalemu potrebito je poduzeti žurne mjere sigurnosti kako bismo spriječili trovanje pučanstva ispušnim plinovima. Možebitna primjena mijera koje utjeću na tijek osobnoga zdravstvenoga stanja a koje mogu pridonjeti boljoj općoj skrbi pučanstva na prostoru gradskoga središta svakako bi bilo smanjenje prometnoga čepa na bitnim raskrižjima gdije su smješteni turistički otoci, poput kršćanskih crkvi, ove stegovne mjere predlažu se ponajprije u vrijeme blagdana kao što su Uskrs i Božić. Časnici i dočasnici iz vojarni u gradu trebaju pridonjeti točnoj uporabi propisanih mjera, nadzorom prometnoga kaosa na nadzornim točkama i promatranjem kroz uporabu zrakoplovstva.	Serbian language: (an official letter to the constitutional) У погледу опште квалитета ваздуха у граду Јерусалиму потребно је да се предузму хитне мере безбедности како би спречили отровање становништва издувним гасовима. Евентуална примена мера које утичу на ток личног здравственог стања које могу да допринесу бољем општем збрињавању становништва на простору градског центра свакако би била смањење саобраћајног колапса на суштинским раскрсницама где су смештена туристичка острва, попут хришћанских цркава, ове дисциплинске мере предлажу се најпре у време празника као шта су Васкрс и Божић. Официри и подофицири из касарни у граду треба да допринесу тачној употреби прописаних мера, контролом саобраћајног хаоса на контролним тачкама и посматрањем преко употребе ваздухопловства. (transcript of the latin alphabet) (U pogledu opšte kvaliteta vazduha u gradu Jerusalimu potrebno je da se preduzmu hitne mere bezbednosti kako bi sprećili otrovanje stanovništva izduvnim gasovima. Eventualna primena mera koje utiću na tok ličnog zdravstvenog stanja koje mogu da doprinesu boljem opštem zbrinjavanju stanovništva na prostoru gradskog centra svakako bi bila smanjenje saobračajnog kolapsa na suštinskim raskrsnicama gde su smeštena turistička ostrva, poput hrišćanskih crkava, ove disciplinske mere predlažu se najpre u vreme praznika kao šta su Vaskrs i Božić. Oficiri i podoficiri iz kasarni u gradu treba da doprinesu tačnoj upotrebi propisanih mera, kontrolom saobračajnog haosa na kontrolnim tačkama i posmatranjem preko upotrebe vazduhoplovstva.)

Example of translation into different languages 2

Croatian	Bosnian	Serbian	English
Bijela sol za kuhanje kemijski je spoj natrija i klora.	Bijela so za kuhanje je hemijski spoj natrijuma i hlora.	Bela so za kuvanje je hemijsko jedinjenje natrijuma i hlora.	White salt for cooking is a chemical compound of sodium and chlorine.
Vlak sa željezničkoga kolodvora krenut će točno u deset sati.	Voz sa željezničke stanice krenut će tačno u deset sati.	Voz sa železničke stanice krenuće tačno u deset sati/časova.	The train station will start exactly at ten o'clock.

Different phonetics 1

Feature	Croatian	Serbian	English
Opposition -u/e	burza	berza	stock-exchange
	porculan	porcelan	porcelain
Opposition -u/i	tanjur	tanjir	plate
Opposition -l/-o after o	sol	so	salt
	vol	vo	ox
	kolčić	kočić	stick
Serbian often drops letter H in the initial and medial position:	čahura	čaura	cartridge
	hrvač	rvač	wrestler
	hrđa	rđa	rust

Different phonetics 2

Croatian language	Latin	altgriechische Aussprache	Gerk alphabet|griech. Buchstabe	byzantinische Aussprache	Serbian language
b	b	[b]	β	[v]	v
e	e	[ɛː]	η	[i]	i
k oder c	c	[k]	κ	[k]	k
u	u	[u̯]	υ (nach Vokal)	[v]	v
k oder h	ch	[kʰ]	χ	[x]	h

Different morphology

Example 1:

English	Croatian	Serbian
add by pouring*	dolijevati	dolivati*
diarrhea	proljev	proliv
gulf, bay	zaljev	zaliv
to influence	utjecati	uticati

Example 2:

English	Serbian	Croatian
tobacco	duvan	duhan
to cook	kuvati	kuhati
dry	suvo	suho
deaf	gluvo	gluho

Example 3:

English	Bosnian	Croatian	Serbian
point	tačka	točka	tačka
correct	tačno	točno	tačno
municipality	općina	općina	opština
priest	svećenik	svećenik	sveštenik
male student	student	student	student
female student	studentica	studentica	studentkinja
male professor	profesor	profesor	profesor
female professor	profesorica	profesorica	profesorka
scientist	naučnik	znanstvenik	naučnik
translator	prevodilac	prevoditelj	prevodilac
reader	čitalac	čitatelj	čitalac
diver	ronilac	ronilac (sometimes: ronitelj)	ronilac

Different internationalisms

Example different:

English	Bosnian	Croatian	Serbian
to organise	organizirati organizovati	organizirati	organizovati
to construct	konstruisati konstruirati	konstruirati	konstruisati
But:
to analyse	analizirati	analizirati	analizirati

Different historically 1

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/ward_1912/ottoman_empire_europe_1792.jpg

Historically, modern age internationalisms entered Bosnian and Croatian mostly through German and Italian, while Serbian received them through French and Russian, so different localisation patterns were established based on those languages. Also, Greek borrowings came to Serbian directly, but through Latin into Croatian:

English	Croatian	Serbian	Note
Bethlehem	Betlehem	Vitlejem	Through Latin in Croatian, through Greek in Serbian
Athens	Atena	Atina
Europe	Europa	Evropa
Cyprus	Cipar	Kipar
chlorine	klor	hlor
impedance	impedanca	impedansa	Through French in Serbian
But:
licence	licenca	licenca	"dozvola" is more common in both languages

Most of chemical element names are different: for international names, Bosnian and Croatian use -ij where Serbian has -ijum (uranij–uranijum). In some native names, Bosnian and Croatian have -ik where Serbian has -(o)nik (kisik–kiseonik(oxygen), vodik–vodonik(hydrogen)). Yet others are totally different (dušik–azot (nitrogen), kositar–kalaj (tin)). Some are the same: srebro (silver), zlato (gold), bakar (copper).

Various dictionary

English	In Serbia	In Croatia	In Bosnia
one thousand	hiljada	tisuća	hiljada
January	januar	siječanj	januar
factory	fabrika	tvornica	fabrika tvornica
rice	pirinač	riža	riža
carrot	šargarepa	mrkva	mrkva
trousers	pantalone	hlače	hlače
bread	hleb	kruh	hljeb
spinach	spanać	špinat	špinat
football	fudbal	nogomet	fudbal
train	voz	vlak	voz
wave	talas	val	talas
person	lice	osoba	lice osoba
uncivil	nevaspitan	neodgojen	neodgojen
one's own	sopstveno	vlastito	vlastito sopstveno
road	put drum	cesta put	put džada
road toll	drumarina putarina	cestarina	putarina
dad	tata	tata ćaća	tata babo
tomato	paradajz	rajčica	paradajz

English	Serbian	Croatian	Bosnian
to accept	prihvatati	prihvaćati	prihvatati
happy, lucky	srećan	sretan	sretan srećan
to comprehend	shvatati	shvaćati	shvatati

Names of the months

In the Croatian language months have Slavic names, while Serbian and Bosnian use the same set of international Latin-derived names as English. But Slavic names may also be used in the Bosnian language as well (although, rarely understood); Latin-derived names are preferred.

English	Croatian	Serbian	Bosnian
January	siječanj	januar	januar
February	veljača	februar	februar
March	ožujak	mart	mart
April	travanj	april	april
May	svibanj	maj	maj
June	lipanj	jun	juni
July	srpanj	jul	juli
August	kolovoz	avgust	august
September	rujan	septembar	septembar
October	listopad	oktobar	oktobar
November	studeni	novembar	novembar
December	prosinac	decembar	decembar

Example of other differences 1

Croatian	Bosnian	Serbian	German
William Shakespeare	William Shakespeare	Vilijam Šekspir oder Вилијам Шекспир	William Shakespeare
München	Minhen	Minhen oder Минхен	München
Zürich	Zürich	Cirih oder Цирих	Zürich
Bruxelles	Brisel	Brisel oder Брисел	Brüssel, frz. Bruxelles
New York	New York	Njujork oder Њујорк	New York
SZO oder WHO	WHO	SZO oder СЗО	WHO

Example of other differences 2

Croatian	Bosnian	Serbian	German
Dobar tek! (kajkav.) oder U slast!	Prijatno!		Guten Appetit!
tjedan (kajkav.)	sedmica, hevta (türk.)	nedelja (kirchenslaw.), sedmica	Woche
sat (türk.)	sat, sahat (türk.)	čas (in dieser Bed. aus dem Russ.), sat (türk.)	Stunde
otok	ostrvo	ostrvo	Insel
vrt	bašča	bašta	Garten
vlak (tschech.)	voz		Zug
kruh	hljeb, somun (türk.)	hleb	Brot
talijanski	italijanski		italienisch
nitko; svatko	niko; svako		niemand; jeder

Example of other differences 3

Croatian	Bosnian	Serbian	German
Španjolska	Španija		Spanien
priopćiti	saopćiti	saopštiti	mitteilen
spol		pol	Geschlecht

Same languages: here's a list of synonims that can be used in both variants of the Serbo-Croatian language.

Englis	Croatian	Serbian
Compare	Usporedba	Поређење (Poređenje)
Europe	Europa	Европа (Evropa)
Netherlands	Nizozemska	Холандија (Holandija)
Italians	Talijani	Италијани (Italijani)
Universe	Svemir	Васиона (Vasiona)
Spine	Kralježnica	Кичма (Kičma)
Air	Zrak	Ваздух (Vazduh)
Education	Odgoj	Васпитање (Vaspitanje)
Week	Tjedan	Седмица (Sedmica)
History	Povijest	Историја (Istorija)
Pantaloons	Hlače	Панталоне (Pantalone)
Belly	Trbuh	Стомак (Stomak)
Science	Znanost	Наука (Nauka)
Personally	Osobno	Лично (Lično)
Persona	Osoba	Лице (Lice)
United Nations	Ujedinjeni Narodi	Уједињене Нације (Ujedinjene Nacije)
Bread	Kruh	Хлеб (Hleb)
Artificial	Umjetno	Вештачки (Veštački)
Cross	Križ	Крст (Krst)
Democracy	Demokracija	Демократија (Demokratija)
Detection	Spoznaja	Сазнање (Saznanje)
Island	Otok	Острво (Ostrvo)
Officer	Časnik	Официр (Oficir)
Road traffic	Cestovni promet	Друмски саобраћај (Drumski saobraćaj)
Autobahn	Autocesta	Аутопут (Autoput)
Length	Duljina	Дужина (Dužina)
Association	Udruga	Удружење (Udruženje)
Factory	Tvornica	Фабрика (Fabrika)
General	Opće	Опште (Opšte)
Christ	Krist	Христoс (Hristos)
I'm sorry	Oprosti	Извини (Izvini)
Geography	Zemljopis	Географија (Geografija)
Week	Tjedan	Седмица (Sedmica)
January	Siječanj	Јануар (Januar)
Passport	Putovnica	Пасош (Pasoš)
Retirees	Umirovljenici	Пензионери (Penzioneri)
Security Council	Vijeće sigurnosti	Савјет безбједности (Savet bezbednosti)
Outdoor	Vanjski	Спољашњи (Spoljašnji)
Own	Vlastito	Сопствено (Sopstveno)
Level	Razina	Ниво (Nivo)
Press	Tisak	Штампа (Štampa)
Worker	Djelatnik	Радник (Radnik)
Decade, century, millennium	Desetljeće stoljeće tisućljeće	Деценија, век, миленијум (Decenija, vek, milenijum)
Communication	Priopćenje	Саопштење
Native language standard	Materinski jezićni standard	Матерњи језички стандард

---

Same alphabet letters

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Scripts_in_Europe_(1901).jpg

• Croatian alphabet (30 letters): A B C Č Ć D Dž Đ E F G H I J K L Lj M N Nj O P R S Š T U V Z Ž

• Serbian scripts (30 letters): A B C Č Ć D Dž Đ E F G H I J K L Lj M N Nj O P R S Š T U V Z Ž or А Б В Г Д Ђ Е Ж З И Ј К Л Љ М Н Њ О П РС Т Ћ У Ф Х Ц Ч Џ Ш

• Bosnian letter (30 letters): A B V G D Đ E Ž Z I J K L Lj M N Nj O P R S T Ć U F H C Č Dž Š

Map of standard language „Central south Slavic“

Difference Serbian language, Croatian language and Bosnian language

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Europe_linguistic_map_1907.JPG (Languages in Europe 1900-...) http://haven.apolyton.net/maps/Europe/europe1800_1850c_lang.jpg (Language in Europe 1800-1900)

Map of various national dialects and subdialects in mix subdialects

http://www.muturzikin.com/carteseurope/5.htm (Dialec map in Europe)

South Slavic continum and Central South Slavic diasystem

Dialect	Sub-Dialect	Bulgarian	Macedonian	Serbian	Montenegrin	Bosnian	Croatian	Slovenian
Torlakian		x	x	x
Štokavian	Kosovo-Resava			x
	Šumadija-Vojvodina			x
	Zeta-South Sandžak			x	x	x
	Eastern Herzgovinian			x	x	x	x
	Eastern Bosnian					x	x
	Western Ikavian					x	x
	Slavonian						x
Čakavian							x
Kajkavian							x	x

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/2/28/20080408171819!Scripts_in_Europe.PNG Script and language

Čakavian and Kaykavian dialects is exclusive Croatian dialect, not serbo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakavian_dialect Croatian diakect http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajkavian_dialect Croatian Kaykavian dialect

Not neoštokavian dialect, neoštokavian is thre differents dialects

Neoštokavian:

1. Croatian neoštokavian ikavian and western-ijekavian (western štokavian and Dubrovnik)
2. Serbian neoštokavian ekavian and estern-ijekavian (estern štokavian and Užice)

• Štokavian dialect sistem